Do you support or oppose junior doctors in all-out strike?
Today is the first day ever that a Junior Doctor’s strike will effect cover in Hospital Accident and Emergency departments across the country.
Jeremy Hunt and senior ministers have insisted they must win the battle with junior doctors, who are staging a historic walkout that will disrupt services including maternity and intensive care in addition to accident and emergency.
The health secretary dashed any lingering hopes of a last-minute compromise when he told MPs that he was determined to impose the unpopular new contract to help turn the NHS into a seven-day service.
A very large majority of junior doctors are likely to strike, with only a tiny number expected to defy the picket lines, although the exact figures will be closely scrutinised.
NHS bosses believe plans are in place to ensure care will be safe, but say the situation will be monitored closely during the stoppage.
Further all-out strike action is due to take place on Wednesday as well.
When we asked the question back in November 2015 “Would you support Junior Doctors if they go on strike?” 62% of our Silversurfers voted ‘YES’ in support of the Junior Doctors.
5 months down the line, and this is the fifth strike to have taken place, how do you feel about this? Who do you blame? Is it the Government who won’t compromise or the Junior Doctors who are being unreasonable or are they both to blame?
What are your views?
We'd love to hear your comments
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We don't tolerate swearing, and reserve the right to remove any posts which we feel may offend others... let's keep it friendly!
1. Hunt was chosen because Cameron valued his Business acumen. ......BIG MISTAKE!!!! He had no experience about how the NHS is run.
2. The NHS is a sprawling mass out of control and should be administered by someone at the head who knows how it is run.
3. Don't blame Young Doctors for striking, they work long hours because they care for the Patients so why shouldn't they protest.
4. Doctors in Practice are too generous with the most expensive
prescription items, cheaper items are just as good.
5. Young girls and boys are given free contraceptives , the boys
blow theirs up like balloons and the young girls don't take them because they know if they get pregnant they only need a letter from their Mother saying they can't cope with a baby in the house and the girl would have a 2 bedroom House , rent paid, family allowance, , unemployment benefit etc.
I could go on , but those at the top of the NHS are not fit for purpose , Hunt should be given a golden handshake and someone from the DHSS take over .
Rant over LOL
– Niccolo Machiavelli (1469 – 1527), The Prince, Chapter 4
Nothing stays the same, and it's my view that if the junior doctors value the NHS as we all do, and want it to survive in its present unique state, then they should think again about what they are doing. Junior doctors will eventually earn more than any of us could dream of, and more and more G.P's are retiring very early because of a pension ceiling and the tax implications. I have no problem with what they earn, but I do believe that they are losing a lot of respect by resisting important changes in their workplace as the rest of us did years ago,and suggesting that the elected government are implementing these contract changes to the detriment of patients.
Qouting Machiavelli is probably a good way of looking at the proposal when considering the term Machiavellianism. This is defined as "the employment of cunning and duplicity in statecraft or in general conduct". As you are aware the word comes from the Italian Renaissance diplomat and writer Niccolò Machiavelli. Jeremy Hunt is not "taking the lead in the introduction of a new order of things", indeed it appears he is trying to change the 'unique state' of the NHS by taking a backwood step. If you have the time please read my comment on the actual reality of what is being proposed. This is not about pay.
I have no time for politicians. However I do believe in democracy. This current bunch of politicians have been given the responsibility to set about making the NHS work in todays world, because we can't live in yesterdays world.
The current Health Minister has been given the responsibility of making the NHS work in todays world and most of us would not disagree that change is necessary to meet patient need. However, Jeremy Hunt has not informed the public on how he intends to honour the Tory manifesto for the NHS to provide a 24 hour, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year complete service (rather than emergency service only) without additional resources that would require more than doctors. Lets not forget the changes to doctors contracts he is imposing only applies to England, there are no changes in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. What effect does that have on the NHS?
It follows then, Jeanmark provides us all with a large amount of insight into this matter of junior doctors and the state's demands upon them. Insight also into the inner workings of the NHS. Thank you. We should all pay attention to her in these matters, if not always agree.
Yet, I can't help wondering two things.
First, is this dispute a matter we ordinary folk, people dependent on the NHS, should have an opinion about? With the exception of those on the front line of the NHS, few, if any, of us know what we're talking about! It is the state which has made this a political football; the state which is attempting to sway public opinion against the junior doctors (it was the nurses not so long ago). The state demonises everyone who dares to disagree with it! Tell me I'm wrong.
The second point which bothers me is ... the NHS, is it a political matter? Is it something which should be controlled from Whitehall and made an election issue? Should the NHS be a political football? Should the state determine who may live and who may not, in terms of the Liverpool Care Pathway?
The NHS, and it's dedicated staff, all have a very special place in all our hearts. It does the impossible, care from cradle to grave. Can not this, the finest of British institutions, be separated from the state, given a special status and funding.
How many of us here, if, over the years, were asked to pay a little more towards maintaining the NHS, would decline? I would not! If you would, be ashamed!
The NHS is nothing without it's devoted people like Jeanmark. We all believe we deserve our pay cheques and probably less for more working conditions. So do the NHS staff, and we should be pleased to pay.
For a very long time I was in a similar occupation - farming, as a farm worker. We were among the lowest paid people in this nation and yet a greater range of skills was demanded of us than anyone except doctors and nurses, I think. It wasn't a career, it was a vocation, to the land, to livestock and to the rich agricultural heritage passed down to us. The great British public, egged on by governments, demanded cheap food. We subsidised your cheap food with a very low rate of pay and so many working hours unpaid. A little like NHS frontline staff!
Allow me also to state, I do not know Jeanmark; our lives have touched briefly on Silver Surfers. That's all. But, for what she and countless others have spent their lives doing, some of it for my benefit, I salute you.
Take the NHS out of the political arena and give the junior doctors a better deal. That's my stance.
Food is desperately important to us. More important, the quality of the food we eat. We in the wealthy West have indeed become very complacent about what we eat. And that, I contend, is one of the reasons for so much sickness among us.
We have lost the link between good nutrition and health. Here, I'm writing as a long time farm worker who still grows as much of his own food as he can.
I'd be delighted if Jeanmark would come in here too.
Food, nutrition and health are inextricably linked. Put in the simplest possible way, poor food = poor long term health and thus even greater demands upon an over stretched NHS. One diet nut wrote some time ago, we are what we eat. She said that for the wrong reasons, but essentially she's right. Stretching a point, we are responsible for ourselves in the first instance.
To abuse our bodies with processed food, takeaways or whatever is sold on the high street, will land us in hospital sooner or later. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.
As a kid in a Norfolk hamlet a doctor visited our pub once a fortnight, held surgery there. If is was something personal a curtain would be drawn. He didn't prescribe endless pills and potions. No, he'd more likely tell us to eat this, or that ... foods and plants readily available to us. That was in the days when elderly people, as I am now, wouldn't see him; they believed there was still a charge. The cottage hospital, four miles away was a place of last resort.
In 2006 I went to my home village after half a century away. Had a beer in the pub. It was amazing the number of men and women, many over ninety, who were there enjoying a pint or a game of darts! Healthy, vigorous people I known as a kid. Why? How?
They ate garden food, kept off a lot of the pills and followed a strong self help regime, as I do.
The more we put processed food down our necks the more sick we'll all become and thereby more dependent on the NHS. It's my belief we could do so much more for ourselves but we don't We prefer a pill and a kind word from a person who's spent seven years training to diagnose, prescribe and move on.
This Health Service is the best in the world! It's failing because too many people don't take responsibility for themselves, as we used to!
The NHS, Police and education are three areas where budgets are irrelevant. We must be willing to pay for the service we expect. The service we need.
I am all for these doctors striking,what would we do without them,the NHS is on its knees at the moment what would happen if they went abroad,it doesn't bear thinking about.
Junior Doctor's have to rely a lot on the nursing staff for a lot, just being a Dr is more the a job it's a life and we had 6 children so it wasnt easy at times but the children didnt get sent to boarding school and didnt miss out. I miss him so much today would have been his birthday and I would have cooked him his favorite meal keeping it warm if he got called out in the middle of it, nobody was turned away.
Please note that we need support services like imaging pathology portering physiotherapy to run a 7 day service and these aren't being uprated at the moment so how will it work is beyond me Also this doesnt apply to Wales Scotland and N Ireland
The volume of people flooding in is breaking all our infrastructures.
Housing shortages ,GP sugerys full to breaking,schools at breaking point,roads pot holed up with sheer volume of traffic ,police stretched to breaking,prisons full to breaking.
Hospital waiting times being extended at hospitals and more and more tax money needed to keep funding every new person that comes through their door plus massive bills for interpreters . Hospitals cannot continue to treat the WHOLE world at yours and my expense and the govenment must close the doors to our country and send people back to country of origin and then start to deal with the rest of the migrants that should not have been allowed in given all the same rights as us with no questions asked .
If it's not stopped at source -you will lose everything you take for granted such as your NHS .What other country would be so stupid as to allow a free from all paid by us/them ,we are all suckers!
Spain makes you pay first along with other EU country's ,we fail badly on collecting the money!
Also if you think for one minute that Labour or anyone else will do better you are wrong as its New Labour that has flooded our country.It was Blair who sighned everything away and joined the Human Right act so that we have to keep every criminal and can't send anyone back!
Open borders,Cameron Blair Unions etc encouraging the flooding of our nation,how many more people can our infrastructures cater for and who is going to pay?You ?
This is why other nations don't do it and charge and collect at point of use otherwise they could not continue!
We are the fools .
Remember the debacle Unions caused by sending much of your/mine union subs directly to the Labour party to keep it afloat without asking the members if they agreed/wanted their sub money going to a political party.
Well this is why its about a fight by Unions versus Torys.
If Labour were in power the Unions would be in charge and there would not be a strike . The Unions would have our tax money to throw around as they pleased .
Its lets bring down the Torys with Unions!
Also too many migrants sucking the life blood out of all infrastructures.
We were not and are not and cannot afford or cater for the whole world !
'When a strike ballot (of, let’s face it, intelligent reasonable and educated people) has a 75% turnout and 98% vote in favour, it is clear that there is a serious problem with the DH’s thought processes and they need to listen. It is highly improbable that a small bunch of radical lefties have brainwashed 50000 intelligent doctors who have been trained to analyse information and draw conclusions, much as the press like that idea'.
You obviously didn't feel the need to try and understand what the real issue is because it is not about union versus Tory.
I have kept quiet until now about the junior doctor's strike but the time has come to stand up and say what needs to be said. Apologies in advance for the long essay, I will try to keep it simple. This is aimed at those of you who are not medical; those who are will know exactly what I am talking about.
If you simply believe what is said in the media, you might think that this is all about Saturday pay or even that junior doctors don't want to work at nights or weekends. It is depressing to overhear people express these views but hardly surprising given the public coverage of the issue.
So what exactly is going on? A junior doctor is any doctor who is not a GP or consultant who is in training to be one of those two. Most doctors spend 8-9 years as a junior but many stay as juniors for longer, especially female doctors who may take time out for families, academics who take time out to do research and doctors in specialities where training in two specialties is needed such as paediatric intensive care. I myself spent 14 years as a junior doctor so was still one aged 37. Junior doctors are the doctors you will see first when you go to A&E or get admitted to a ward and will be responsible for delivering your day to day care when you are in hospital. Junior doctors are covering the hospital 24/7, 365 days a year and always have done. And contrary to what you might believe from the papers, they don't have any choice in the matter, their contracts say they have no choice in working evenings, nights and weekends.
So what is all the fuss about? Well it is about being able to be safe. When I was a JD, I used to work ridiculous hours. In one job in my 1st year, every 3rd weekend I would go to work at 9am on a Saturday and leave at 5pm on a Tuesday. That was 80 hours in a row with sleep grabbed when the chances arose. It was dangerous and dehumanising and the even crazier thing was that I was actually paid at a lower rate for the unsocial hours than basic pay (1/3 of basic in fact).
Fortunately my generation of juniors was amongst the last to have to do that and things slowly changed. Now junior doctors get paid at a higher rate than basic for unsocial hours, that rate determined by the intensity of work in that specialty e.g. emergency room work would be a higher rate than dermatology. Standard hours are defined as 7am-7pm Monday to Friday (which are not exactly standard working hours for most people) and there are rules on the maximum number of hours per week and consecutive hours that can be worked. There are also safeguards in place so that if employers are consistently making juniors work beyond these rules, they can be fined; hence there is a disincentive for employers to overwork junior doctors, therefore they are not tired and dangerous 1990-style.
But work done outside standard hours is NOT overtime. These hours are contracted hours and have to be worked and, quite rightly, are paid at a higher rate than basic pay. In specialties where there is not a lot of emergency work, the majority of work is in routine hours, but areas like A&E, paediatrics, intensive care have a lot of work done in unsocial hours and attract a higher rate of pay for those hours. I stress again that this is not overtime; overtime is work done in addition to contracted hours. All doctors and nurses do overtime - staying late to complete work and ensure patient safety and very rarely if ever does anyone claim for these overtime hours.
But Jeremy Hunt wants to change the contract for junior doctors, his logic being that doing this will help to deliver the “7-day NHS”. Nobody is really sure what exactly this means. It may mean that he wants routine services such as outpatient clinics and planned surgery or scans for non-urgent problems to take place on Saturdays and Sundays, not just Monday to Friday. If this is the case then changing the juniors’ contract is not going to make this happen as without doing the same for (deep breath) consultants, nurses, porters, receptionists, pharmacists, operating department assistants, radiographers, physiotherapists and many other staff these things won’t be able to happen at weekends.
The 7-day NHS may refer to emergency work. If this is the case then it already exists. Junior doctors are already there at night and at weekends. The proposed contract changes are not going to change the numbers who are there as there is no plan to increase the total number of junior doctors. What is proposed is that the definition of normal time changes from 7am-7pm to 7am-10pm Monday to Friday and from 7am to somewhere between 5pm and 10pm on Saturday. This means that employers could make junior doctors work more unsocial hours as they have redefined as standard hours. It is true that the basic rate of pay for standard hours will be increased by 13%, which sounds great doesn’t it? Except that for the emergency specialties as above that routinely have a lot of evening, night and weekend work, what is currently paid at an enhanced rate will be paid at standard rate; even at 13% higher for standard rate, total pay for junior doctors in these specialties will drop considerably, maybe by as much 30% for some. Doesn’t sound so good now really.
And, of course, there will be the same number of doctors but spread over 7 days rather than 5 so there will be weekdays where there will be fewer juniors than there are now. A great analogy I heard was to imagine that you have a 10-inch pizza cut into 5 slices. You decide that 5 slices isn’t going to fill you up so your mum cuts the same pizza into 7 slices and tells you that you’ll be full with that. But she won’t get you a bigger pizza.
So same number of junior doctors spread more thinly is going to reduce cover on weekdays as compared to now. And weekdays are when not only emergency work but also routine planned work that also needs input from junior doctors takes place so this will have a detrimental effect on waiting lists for clinics and operations as well.
Junior doctors with children will be hit particularly hard, especially those who have junior doctors spouses, as more unsocial hours will be worked. Childcare is generally difficult to get hold of outside of 8-5 on weekdays; the department of health have actually said (with no hint of irony) that in this situation, family members who are non-medical and don’t work evenings or weekends should be asked to provide child care to get over this problem! It is very likely that couples could go several days without actually seeing each other or their families if rotas do not coincide.
But what about the increased deaths at weekends we have been hearing about? Actually, the statistics have been completely misrepresented and even the authors of the research paper that gets quoted regularly have pointed this out. The statistic was that if you are admitted to hospital on a weekend, your risk of dying within 30 days of that admission was higher than if admitted midweek. Your risk of dying is very low anyway and that very low risk is marginally higher (but still very low) if admitted on weekends. This is probably because admissions to hospital in the week consist of not only sick people but also well people coming in for routine things, whereas at weekends you would tend to avoid hospital unless you were desperately unwell and most likely would leave things as long as possible and so be sicker when you got there. Interestingly they also showed that if you were already in hospital on a weekend, having been admitted in the week, your risk of death within 30 days was lower than it would have been. Either way, there is no evidence of cause and effect in terms of numbers of junior doctors around at weekends. The so-called weekend effect has also been seen in the USA and Australia too so it isn’t peculiar to state-funded health as opposed to private insurance-based systems.
Interestingly the misrepresentation of this study has led to ill people actually avoiding hospitals on weekends and delaying presenting till Monday with potentially devastating consequences. Have a look online for the #hunteffect. Scary.
Another worrying thing about the proposed new contract is that it takes away the safeguards against juniors being made to work ridiculously long hours. Whereas currently there is a mechanism that makes it in the interests of an employer to ensure the hours are not exceeded, the new contract removes these safeguards. It does suggest that each hospital trust has a “guardian” to whom junior doctors can flag up concerns about their hours but this “guardian” will also be a senior member of the trust who has no obligation to actually do anything about these concerns. I think back to my days as an exhausted junior doctor and it scares me to think that such unsafe and dangerous hours could make a return.
The pay scales are also changing. There has been automatic pay progression as you gain experience and seniority until now. The new system means that there are fewer points where pay is raised. This is not necessarily a bad thing as it can be argued that you shouldn’t get a pay rise unless you deserve it. But remember that over 10 years can be spent as a junior doctor in which time you are likely to acquire husbands, wives, children and mortgages; many existing junior doctors have made their financial plans for the next few years based on the expectation that there will be pay progression. One part-time junior doctor who has worked with me told me that if the new contract came in she would no longer be able to pay her mortgage and would have to sell her home. Bear in mind that these are young people who have spent at least 5 years at university accruing debts from both student loans for living expenses and now also £45000 in tuition fees before even starting work. The new pay scales do not reflect the levels of responsibility taken by junior doctors at different stages of their training at all which makes no sense whatsoever. For female doctors who are likely to take time out to have children and then return to work part-time, the consequences on their income will be huge. The department of health actually acknowledged that women would be hit unfairly but suggested that this had to be accepted as an unfortunate consequence.
The BMA junior doctors committee walked out of talks with the department of health because the DH’s definition of negotiation was that they would reserve the right to do what they wanted if they didn’t agree with what the committee was suggested. In other words, they did not want to negotiate so there was not point in the BMA trying. This is why industrial action was proposed because there was no other way to try to get Jeremy Hunt to talk. Sadly, even when negotiations restarted, he could not see that without a bigger pizza nothing was going to improve patient care and in fact things would be worse and so talks stopped. He has now said he is imposing the contract and that is that, he won’t talk anymore. When a strike ballot (of, let’s face it, intelligent reasonable and educated people) has a 75% turnout and 98% vote in favour, it is clear that there is a serious problem with the DH’s thought processes and they need to listen. It is highly improbable that a small bunch of radical lefties have brainwashed 50000 intelligent doctors who have been trained to analyse information and draw conclusions, much as the press like that idea.
If you have read this far, please take it on board and share with your friends. I’ve tried to keep it simple (even though it may not seem that way!) The public is not getting the full story from the TV and newspapers and if this contract is imposed then we will all be on the receiving end of the consequences eventually.
What the Unions or Hunt want will solve nothing as its what is happening to all our infrastructures through mass migration that is bringing the whole house of cards down .
The pressure is building in every infrastructure and we are NOT coping -and sticking plasters will not take the pressure away!
I would be interested in how do you define 'inherent waste' and 'top heavy' management.
But first we must stop mass migration using our facilities free!
We are a small country not equipped for what is happening and are being brought to our knees!
The Unions think they have the answers?
I think not!
Also Immigration is classed as a dirty racist word with the Westminster ministers which means nothing will be addressed and we will sink!
Negotiations would not work if everyone was so sure that they were right.
This Governmet is determined to get rid of our very precious NHS, we must not let this happen. We all must support the NHS and all of the staff who work there.
My sympathy for the junior doctors case disappeared when they decided that they would not provide emergency cover for babies ans children.
They have not got a brain cell amongst them,but they know how to shaft people!
This is why Merkel has got him under her thumb,she can see he is way out of his depth and can be easily led.
People have different views and opinions!
Where will the tax come from to pay to keep the Western world healthy!
Cameron Blair the Unions haven't a clue and only think of today.
I am taxed up to the hilt for what?
Crumbling services that I pay for.
I think I can spend my tax far better than Westminster ,something is going to have to give.