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Should we have a second EU referendum?

Justine Greening has become the most senior Conservative MP to give her support to a second referendum on EU membership. 

Would a second EU referendum be possible?

Here are some of the questions being asked about a possible new vote on Britain’s membership of the European Union and some of the questions being asked about a “People’s Vote”:

– Who else backs a second referendum?

The Liberal Democrats and Greens are demanding a vote on the final Brexit deal, with the option of remaining in the EU, along with campaign groups Best for Britain and People’s Vote and former political leaders like Tony Blair, Sir John Major, David Miliband, Nick Clegg and Lord Heseltine.

– What about Labour?

Jeremy Corbyn’s party is keeping its options open. Despite polls suggesting a majority of party members would back a second vote, Labour is not calling for one, though it has not ruled it out. Equally, the Scottish National Party, currently the third party in Westminster, has left the option of a referendum on the table.

– And what do Brexiters think of it?

Leavers’ standard response is to say the issue was settled with the 52%-48% vote in favour of Brexit in 2016. They say calls for a second referendum are just another example of the EU forcing voters to go back to the polls until they get the “right” result.

However, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage has flirted with the idea of a second poll, suggesting it might be necessary to “kill off” the idea of continued membership.

– And the Government?

Theresa May’s official spokesman says: “The British people have voted to leave the EU and there is not going to be a second referendum under any circumstances.”

– What do the polls tell us?

Over the past year, opinion surveys have fairly consistently shown voters think Britain made the wrong decision in 2016. But until recently this has not been matched by any appetite to re-run the referendum. Polls over the past few months appear to have shown a shift in opinion towards a decisive second vote.

– What would the question be?

This is the crucial issue. Remainers insist voters should be offered a choice between whatever deal the Government has secured and staying in the EU. Brexiters say the decision to leave has already been taken, so the ballot paper should offer the options of leaving under the Government deal or with no deal. Ms Greening wants to offer three options, with voters given first and second preferences.

– Would that settle the question at last?

Highly unlikely. Victory for Remain would leave Brexiters howling betrayal and leave huge numbers of voters feeling their views had been ignored. A vote for a no-deal departure would horrify Remainers and potentially cause panic in the business community.

The Government’s compromise deal might well be knocked out on the second count, even though it might have beaten either of the other options when second preferences were taken into account.

– So will a second referendum happen?

It’s very difficult to say. The decision may well lie in Jeremy Corbyn’s hands. If he is willing to whip his MPs to vote for one, it is quite possible that enough Tories would rebel to force Theresa May to accept it. But it is far from clear that the Labour leader is ready to accept a second vote. Much will depend on how public opinion moves in the face of open warfare within the Conservatives over the PM’s Chequers deal.

– And would the EU accept the result?

Brussels has repeatedly sent signals that it would be ready to discard Britain’s Article 50 letter if the UK changed its mind. However, Brexiters warn that the EU would demand concessions – such as an end to the British rebate or maybe even a promise to join the euro – in return for writing off the last two years of disruption over Brexit.

What are your views?  Would you welcome a second chance to vote, or do you think this is totally uncalled for?

Should we have a second EU referendum?

2463 people have already voted, what's your opinion? Yes No

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mike285
16th Nov 2018
0
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What on earth is the point of having a referendum if you are not going to accept the result of it.
No one has ever suggested we have another poll because we didnt like the result.
The whole of government should be trying to help solve the way to get out of the EU ,like it or not. Its up to M P's to make it work as best as they can.
The way they are all arguing is never going to find a result. There is a Prime minister doing the job for heavens sake help her out instead of complaining.
We have one Boss get on with it properly
ColinM1
12th Nov 2018
1
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There must be second vote The initial Referendum was flawed with lies and illegal monies propping up the Leave Campaign. The majority of voters now realise that a European future , a Remain future is essential . The alternative ? The Rees Moggs and others of his ilk lining their pockets as poverty prevails in the country at large . This cannot be acceptable in this day and age .
Roof Top Crow
11th Oct 2018
-1
Thanks for voting!
The result of the referendum does not really matter.

It is in the past, and now, what really matters, is the future of the UK.

We now know from both leavers and remainers that leaving EU membership with a fudged together half in half out agreement will be very bad for the future of the UK.

We now know from both leavers and remainers that leaving EU membership with no deal will be a disaster for the future of the UK.

In life we all make mistakes.
We normally realise and acknowledge our mistake and we then do the sensible thing. We admit we made a mistake, we say we have changed our mind and then we try to correct any damage we might have caused or will cause by hanging on to the first idea.

We do not hang on to the mistake and stubbornly say “that is what I have decided and I do not care what damage it does to me and anyone around me”.

Yes of course we should be asked to think again and vote again.
viking
4th Oct 2018
1
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If the UK did have another vote and it swung the other way, most Remoners do not seem to realise that the EEC has told us all on several occasions that there would be a substantial price to pay if we decided to go back into the EEC at the end of these negotiations.
They have indicated that because of the delays caused by the UK protracted negotiations the next step which was postponed will be the federalisation and the tightening of the grip from one centre,[ not sure yet which centre this will be] To join up again, the UK will have to adhere and agree to this as part of a deal to come back into the fold
PercyVere
5th Nov 2018
0
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And we would be forced to adopt the hated €uro.
CarolM18
4th Oct 2018
2
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there should be no second vote as the people have already voted ,if the remainers did not like the outcome of the second referedum would they then request a third
Sixty five alive
28th Sep 2018
0
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jkrg123
28th Sep 2018
0
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The first Referendum was called in a very cavalier way with no proper alternative plan in place - the main purpose of calling one seemed to be to appease the leave faction of the Tory party holiding it together while going into a General Election. 72.2% of the 46,400,001 electorate voted in the referendum; 16,141,241 (48.1%) for Remain and 17,410,742 (51.9%) for Leave. From the total number of people eligible to vote this does not constitute the 'overwhelming will of the people' (29 million against or non voting). In view of the number of non voters - for whatever reason - and the succeeding release of information which was not available for the first referendum then we should at least have a vote on whether to accept a proposed deal followed by a second referendum if required. Democracy is about being able to change your mind - we do it every five years in the UK - but a decision of this magnitude affecting the future wealth and state of the economy, wellbeing and living standards for generations to come should be taken lightly.
Shel
28th Sep 2018
2
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Certainly not we have already voted to come out of the European Union.
frog61
28th Sep 2018
2
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We are a democratic country we voted and leaving the EU won if we have a second vote and we don’t like it do we have a third vote and so on
PercyVere
5th Nov 2018
0
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The best of 5 perhaps? LOL
Boz
24th Sep 2018
2
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It is not democratic to have another vote just because some people did,nt get the vote they were wanting, you could go on voting for ever and ever and get no were.
Its not right when people say no one new what they were voting for , l certainly knew what i was voting for because i voted not to go into what was then the common market back in 1972
ColinM1
19th Sep 2018
0
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The timely and stark warnings of the economic dangers ahead given by the IMF, the Governor of the Bank of England and the IFS must not be ignored no matter how much they are dismissed by Boris Johnson and his merry band of dangerous imperialists and Little Englanders who offer nothing by the way of alternatives other than a dream of a great deal of jam tomorrow ! Let sanity prevail and kick into touch the already divided and terminally hapless Tory Party .
viking
8th Sep 2018
2
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Many died on the Artic convoys to Archangel which helped Russia in their hour of desperate need. Now they repay the UK with this sort of lawless behaviour.
ColinM1
6th Sep 2018
0
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Am somewhat confused having read the headlines in both the Daily Mail amd Daily Express regarding these evil Russian poisoning spies . Is this the same Russia that financed the Tory Party at the last Election ??
ColinM1
2nd Sep 2018
2
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Time to throw the whole stupid Brexit proposals in the bin !!!

International Trade Secretary Liam Fox has refused to back Chancellor Philip Hammond's warning that a "no-deal" Brexit could damage the economy.
Speaking on the BBC's Andrew Marr show, he said: "This idea that we can predict what our borrowing would be 15 years in advance is just a bit hard to swallow."
Treasury analysis estimates that by 2033 borrowing would be around £80bn a year higher under a "no-deal" scenario.
It also forecasts no deal could mean a 7.7% hit to GDP over the next 15 years.
Roof Top Crow
3rd Sep 2018
1
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Logical thinking is not a Liam Fox strength. He does not want us to believe Treasury Forecasts, that are supported by analysis and data, but he does want us to believe his guesswork forecasts that are not supported by any kind of data and analysis.
Wilf
3rd Sep 2018
1
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I have never had much time for Fox. he strikes me as a charisma free zone and just drones on. No energy!
ColinM1
1st Sep 2018
1
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Follow up to my reference to the UN condemnation of the Tory Government : A “human catastrophe”
The UN Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (UNCRPD) has been meeting in Geneva, Switzerland. It has been assessing how well the UK government is sticking to its obligations under the UN Convention on the Rights of Disabled People, which the UK government ratified in 2009. The UNCRPD has been hearing evidence from disabled people’s organisations (DPOs), charities, and NGOs. But it has also been hearing counter-arguments from the UK government.
And the UNCRPD was unequivocal in its opinion on how disabled people are treated by the Conservative government. Its Chair, Theresia Degener, said in a statement seen by The Canary:
Evidence before us now and in our inquiry procedure as published in our 2016 report reveals that [welfare] cut policies [have] led to human catastrophe in your country, totally neglecting the vulnerable situation people with disabilities find themselves in.
Roof Top Crow
30th Aug 2018
2
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My question was not about EU membership. It was about the reversal of a democratic vote taken in 1975.

Can you explain why it is considered acceptable to reverse the democratic vote of 1975.... but it would not be considered acceptable to reverse the democratic vote of 2016.
Roof Top Crow
30th Aug 2018
2
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I asked a question and so far you have not answered other than to say that a nation can change its mind at any time.

Taking that view into account, Can I assume you would not object to there being another referendum before 29th March 2019.
ColinM1
31st Aug 2018
-1
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Well said RTC ! No point in debating with these Brexit ostriches . Brexit has proven a flawed idea and committing Little Britain to the proverbial dust bin .
ColinM1
31st Aug 2018
0
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What an arrogant prune you are Hankgg !
ColinM1
1st Sep 2018
0
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Hi Hank ggg. Firstly accept my apologies for giving you and equine name - not intentional !

The Referenda arranged over the years have proven to have been flawed in the extreme .The so called United Kingdom , if it is to be relevant in today’s society must reflect the opinions of its four partners and not the population distribution that currently exists .A valid Referendum must follow electoral law as must the pertaining parties . Despite your pal Yodama listing numerous expenditure details , she and so many others fail to appreciate that we are talking monies expended within the electoral period and NOT that outwith . The “Black Money “ pumped in by the Tory supporting Northern Irish religious bigots to the Leave campaign as with rest of the Tory “ Black Monies “ covered up by May and her third rate cronies must be accounted for ! It is now clear that fragile foundations of the Brexiteers has crumbled away .We have benefitted from our European associations and could still do so - let sanity prevail !
ColinM1
1st Sep 2018
0
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I am afraid Hank GGG you are doing a Yodama and missing the point . I repeat “ BLACK MONEY “ and the insidious sash wearing bigots called the DUP . The Tories currently are being run by right wing hippocrits too busy feathering their own nests to be really worried about such trivia as food banks , poverty , aid to the disabled ( as the UK was severely condemned this week by the UN ) . Lurking in the background is that little weasel Farage . Trust them ? Hardly ! In my backyard the silent Ruth Davidson ( still waiting her responses from 4 years ago ! ) is up to her ears in “ Black Money “ It appears that at least 5 Tory MPs did not declare monies received . Could go on but please just listen and try to answer .
stanleyk
26th Sep 2018
0
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It hasn't been proved a flaw idea. It hasn't happened yet.
icom
29th Aug 2018
2
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having a second referendum makes a mockery of the whole voting system,whats the point of voting for anything if certain people don't like the result so they want to do it again.the law of averages says they'll get their way eventually
Roof Top Crow
29th Aug 2018
1
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Referendum 1. 1975
We had the first referendum in 1975 and 67% of the voting population voted to join the EU.

Referendum 2. 2016
We had the second referendum in 2016 and 47% of the voting population voted to leave the EU.

I agree with you, having a second referendum, as we did in June 2016, makes a mockery of the whole voting system. It seems that the leavers got their way in 2016 and managed to overturn the democratic referendum result of 1975.
Roof Top Crow
29th Aug 2018
1
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oops bit of a typo. As I recall just under 52% voted to leave in June 2016.

But I suppose it does not matter because whatever way you look at it, the democratic result of 1975 was overturned in 2016.
Roof Top Crow
30th Aug 2018
1
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Can you explain why it is considered acceptable to reverse the democratic vote of 1975.... but it would not be considered acceptable to reverse the democratic vote of 2016.
.
jeaniembe
12th Oct 2018
0
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I don't remember voting to join the EU in 1975. In fact I believe it was the common market. Maybe if it was still just the common market, we wouldn't have needed this referendum to leave what became the EU dictatorship.
Yodama
23rd Aug 2018
1
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Heavenly harps still harping on about DUP dirty money have a few broken strings and the music is becoming discordant to say the least.


The REMAIN Campaign received LARGER donations and spent more money on their campaign than the leave voters.
More sneaky in their dealings.

DDB UK Limited RECEIVED £191,000 IN DONATIONS - registered as independent campaigners on 25/5/2016 ( less than a month before the referendum.)

BEST FOR OUR FUTURE LTD- RECEIVED £424,000 in DONATIONS. On 27/5.2016, ( less than a month before the referendum.)

THE IN CROWD- Proud Robinson Limited RECEIVED £76.000
IN DONATIONS, on 10th June 2016, ( less than two weeks before the referendum.)

VIRGIN MANAGEMENT LIMITED- RECEIVED £210,000 IN DONATIONS ( less than three weeks before the referendum)

WAKE UP AND VOTE- RECEIVED £100.000 IN DONATIONS ( less than a month before the referendum.)

Remainer's used ,MORE MONEY, five new campaigns and did exactly the same as the leave campaign.
Cadwalladr's charges against the Leave campaign pale in comparison.

Jolyon Maugham ( Cadwalladr's Rottwieler) questions the validity of the referendum due to collusion over leave campaigners?
Remainers coordinated their campaigns on a much greater scale.
Remain campaigns colluded on a much larger scale.

REMAIN CAMPAIGN SPENT £19 MILLION
LEAVE CAMPAIGN SPENT £13 MILLION

£9 MILLION of TAXPAYERS money was use for the REMAIN campaign where over £3 MILLION spent on online ads and digital promotion such as Facebook.

TOTAL SPENDING FOR:-
REMAIN - £19,070,566
LEAVE - £13, 426, 241
Now we must ask, where did the money come from to set up these Limited Companies or to use the existing companies to sneak in under the radar.

The whole campaign was strongly biased in favour of the Remain campaign so charges of cheating by the Leave campaign are spurious to say the least.

Remain campaigners have waged a heavily funded war against the Leavers......and lost!!

Still more money being funnelled into the remain camp to illicit another referendum. George Soros donating large amounts and very busy setting up groups to overturn the vote.
He is a foreigner, what is he doing manipulating our voting?
George Soros has an interest in collapsing countries economic systems, he is heavily donating in the UK...WHY?

WE ARE LEAVING!!
ColinM1
23rd Aug 2018
0
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What a bunch of clowns

Sweaty Raab !


He kept trying to sound upbeat about it, but his nerves gave him away. As the press conference wore on, Dominic Raab started to come across like some kind of deranged flight steward, insisting that in the "unlikely scenario" of no-deal, everything would be fine. The plane would hit the water smoothly, just like in those cartoons they put on the safety leaflets, and then happy families would slide down into the inflatable rafts.
viking
23rd Aug 2018
1
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Things Remoaners no longer wish to talk about;-

Drunken behaviour of the most senior of the Brussels junta.

What will happen to the rest of the EU when the large contribution made by the UK to the EU finishes.

Federalisation to come from not Brussels or Strasbourg but from Berlin.
Enjoy your Volkesbrodt and Bratvoirst.
Yodama
23rd Aug 2018
0
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No more "God Save the Queen" Viking, everybody, schools included with have to sing the EU anthem while chewing on their Bratvoirst.
Job done.

The EU is collapsing, if we leave they will be in big trouble. EU sceptic countries like Greece and Czechoslovakia who want out but are being held hostage by the EU.
Czexit is coming very soon, they too have had enough.
Roof Top Crow
24th Aug 2018
2
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The list of world leaders who were known as more than moderate drinkers is very long. Four names come instantly to mind: Churchill, Roosevelt, Yeltsin, and Nixon.
.
Nothing will happen to the rest of the EU when UK contributions end. Unlike the UK, the EU has spent the past 2 years adjusting its financial future for post Brexit.
Roof Top Crow
24th Aug 2018
2
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I have been to Germany many times over the past 40 or more years and have never experienced or been aware of the attitude that you negatively describe as Volkesbrodt and Bratvoirst.
.
And where is your evidence that the EU is collapsing?
Yodama
24th Aug 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
A myriad of reasons RTC:

Guy Verhofstadt and Barnier, the thorn in the side and procrastinators of any grown-up deal with EU27.

The automotive industry as one example.
Hans-Olaf -Henkel, a German politician and former head of the Federation of German Industries wants Barnier and Verhofstadt removed for their role in being so intransigent and prolonging the discussions.
He is backed by others who feel the same.

ALREADY A SPLIT AND CRACKS APPEARING.

The German association of automative industry exported 769,000 cars to UK last year, UK is its largest export destination.

If there is no deal then this would cause job losses in the thousands for German Auto suppliers. 42,000 jobs rely on British sales. They would lose approximately €16.9 billion.

THIS IS THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG FOR TRADING PROBLEMS THE 27 WILL FACE.

Tourism, they will suffer because they have pushed the pound low by their actions, British tourists, the €5 billion British tourists spend in europe will suffer due to the low pound.
Scaremongering tactics by our own politicians are helping to drive down the pound.
Holiday destination such as Spain are extremely worried.

WE IMPORT FOOD PRODUCTS FROM THE CANARY ISLANDS to a much greater extent than the EU, so scare stories of UK running short of food is nothing short of ridiculous.
Italy says that the restrictions placed on UK after Brexit would devastate their industry.

Pharmaceutical giant Astra Zeneca has informed the EU to stockpile drugs immediately.
The EU27 are lagging far behind in being prepared. ( So much for your statement of preparedness.)

When Cameron approached them for a new deal for UK, they arrogantly turned him away and ignored him. Now to their detriment!!

I could go on for pages and pages RTC, but I feel sure you get the picture, THE EU REALLY DO NEED US MORE THAN WE NEED THEM.
Oh! On the horizon , Czech Republic, Sweden and Greece want to follow in the footsteps of UK Brexit.

I am so, so tired of arguing these points now,
A new referendum would damage this country severely.
Finis.
Roof Top Crow
25th Aug 2018
1
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It comes down to numbers. The population of the EU is close to 513 million. The population of the UK is close to 65 million.

The UK represents under 13% of EU membership leaving 87% who will remain in membership when we leave the EU.

Realistically our 13% may cause a short ripple for the remaining 87%, but it will quickly pass and they will move on.

Director General Joachim Lang of the BDI (the equivalent of our CBI) recently said that both sides must move more quickly and the UK must accept a compromise.
viking
29th Aug 2018
-1
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Sorry but I can not remember any of the world leaders you mentioned having to be dragged /carried out of a semi-public meetings. Perhaps the person concerned should go into re-hab before having to make any decisions about Brexit.
Roof Top Crow
29th Aug 2018
1
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Jean-Claude Juncker and his team have continuously denied the rumours about him being dragged out of NATO meetings.

The Sun, The Express and The Telegraph have all pushed this unsubstantiated story because it matches the very sad obsession they all have of vilifying the EU, and all of the people who work in the organisation.

Maybe we should ask an MEP to comment about an acceptable level of alcohol intake before attending a meeting. Nigel Farage would be a good person to ask as he makes no secret about his alcohol intake.

The problem is that Nigel has the worst meeting attendance record out of all 746 MEP’s. So that would not work.

Churchill made no secret of his daily alcohol intake and alcohol dependence. A recent article described it as an "Epic Drinking Regimen”
viking
30th Aug 2018
-1
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Kindly obtain the relevant back copies of Metro to see some of what you wish to deny !! Sorry the camera does not lie in this instance.
Roof Top Crow
30th Aug 2018
2
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The Metro is owned by The Daily Mail Group. Who, as you know, have taken an extreme anti EU stance for many years.

The same Daily Mail newspaper that claimed in May 2017, just days before the last election, that the Labour Party Leaders are “Apologists for Terror”. An outrageous and contemptable headline.

The Daily Mail has no hesitation in demeaning and ridiculing anyone or anything that does fit their own distorted view of society.

I have nothing but contempt for The Daily Mail and the newspapers within the group.

I was going to finish by saying something positive about The Metro and The Daily Mail, but after a lot of thought, nothing came to mind.
viking
31st Aug 2018
0
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Not liking the photograph in the Metro ?

OK try "Carry on Brussels " and please don't say it is all fabrication.

Jokesville should be shut down...........NOW.

Jokesville is how a certain MEP described that institution.
ColinM1
22nd Aug 2018
1
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A breath of fresh air Roof Top Crow ! All the best !
ColinM1
21st Aug 2018
0
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UK can be '21st Century exporting superpower', says Liam Fox

Translation: , it is another vacuous quote stuffed full of empty rhetoric, designed to lull you into believing that we actually know what we're doing.
Roof Top Crow
22nd Aug 2018
1
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Liam Fox resigned from his previous cabinet position.

In his own words, he said he had not been able to differentiate between his cabinet responsibilities and his private life.

Are we really expected to listen and believe anything he says?
ColinM1
21st Aug 2018
0
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Oh Yodama still no explanation or even a mention of the illegal DUP Referendum money ? Don't think you can find an answer to it . The relevance of this is that the money was used in the course of the Referendum and should have been subject to electoral law regarding expenditure . You raise the names of Soros and Julian Dunkerton - both these individuals are reported as donating monies to advertise the obvious need to hold a second Referendum . A second Referendum has not as yet been announced That is NOT a criminal offence so is irrelevant to the discussion .
If indeed you believe the vote has “ been scrutinised to death “and the “ vote is done “ then the obvious awaits .
viking
20th Aug 2018
0
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One of the basic reasons why things are getting so nasty now is that the EU is about to loose the third largest contributor [or are we the second largest ? ] to the EU pot every year.
This will mean that this deficiency will have to be made up by the remainig member states, and that is sending shock waves through those on the gravy train.
No doubt the Remoaners will argue that this cannot be true, well just wait and see if this could see a break up starting with the Med area.
ColinM1
21st Aug 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
Things Brexiters no longer say :

£350M for NHS
Immigration will go down
UK will be better off
Easy trade deals
Turkey are joining the EU
Brexit hurts the EU more than us

Things Brexiters do say now:

UK might be ok in 50 years
It won’t be Armageddon
Remoaners are to blame
PercyVere
20th Aug 2018
0
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When will all these cries for another referendum stop? Best of 3? Best of 5? Best of Who gives a toss?
Yodama
19th Aug 2018
0
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Thank you! a sporting career sounds good, didn't know I had it in me. Sportsmen/women know how to give in gracefully when they are beaten, Bullying tactics are frowned upon.

Side-stepped the George Soros question then?
One Million pounds donated by Julian Dunkerton for a new referendum? Desperation and meddling in politics?

When will you realise, the vote is done, it is happening, It has been scrutinised to death..get over it.
Sorry you choked on your porridge, you really shouldn't get quite so aggressive when you are eating.
ColinM1
19th Aug 2018
-1
Thanks for voting!
Still not answered the DUP Dark Money and the Brexit cheats - with a body swerve like that you can have a fine sporting career ahead . The hole is getting bigger and bigger and --- !!!
ColinM1
19th Aug 2018
0
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Hardly surprised at Yodama’s posting re the charade aka Referendum on Brexit !.
” We “ are all right “, “ You” are all wrong - heads I win tails you lose. A total failure to answer any of the points put forward - particularly the scandal over “ dark money “ and the DUP . Let me refresh your analytical mind and trust you can come back with an answer :

“ Just how much the DUP spent on Brexit remains to be seen. But the Electoral Commission have already let slip something surprising: it’s more than £250,000. And the most obvious reason that a relatively small party had so much to spend on this campaign? Because political donations in Northern Ireland are kept secret “


European Union countries are no longer at loggerheads like they were in the past. With the exception of civil war in Yugoslavia (which wasn't in the EU at the time), Europe has managed to heal the divisions which were so painfully exposed in the two World Wars in the Twentieth Century. The EU was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 2012 for helping to promote peace and international cooperation. Many Eastern European countries are keen to join the EU because they feel it will help promote economic and political stability.Your reference to Hitler and a right wing threat nearly made me choke on my porridge ! The present set up within the fragmenting Tory Party makes even the insipid UKIPers look like left wing extremists !

Then let us pray that come it may,
(As come it will for a' that,)
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that
Yodama
19th Aug 2018
0
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"Nowadays, men lead lives of noisy desperation!"

James Thurber.

Let's talk about George Soros dark money!
Yodama
17th Aug 2018
1
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I wonder why the vociferous voices of those who lost the Brexit vote are now fruitlessly pointing fingers in all directions in a desperate attempt to bring on yet another referendum,
( we have had 3 votes regarding Brexit.)

Plucking vague statistics out of the Media ether to lay blame at the doorstep of the "old" people of Britain, for shame!

Those that voted to leave are vilified and accused of not having enough intelligence to make an informed decision.

ColinM1 states:
It seems that a high proportion of those supporting it are in the elderly age group and are somewhat lost in reasoned debate. (sic)

The assumption that 17, 410, 742 MILLION people who voted to leave are all misinformed or senile with no grasp of politics or what it may mean for Britain...is not just insulting, it is a scandalous calumny!

The older generation who voted to leave still remember two bloody wars . Millions died fighting for the freedom and freedom of speech that these spouters of hatred enjoy today.

Should we stay in the EU.
The relentless encroachment of control, laws and domination we will be faced with in the future, will finish the job Hitler and those before him started.
GREAT Britain finally in submission, that is the European Union in Brussels final agenda.
A Superstate where we have no say, power or rights.

Do some real research into the foundation of the EU it may open your eyes.
Why does no-one see the elephant in the room?
[email protected]
17th Aug 2018
0
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What would be the question, but whatever, the same methods would be used by both sides using the same scare tactics.
ColinM1
16th Aug 2018
0
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Brexit have no arguments . It seems that a high proportion of those supporting it are in the elderly age group and are somewhat lost in reasoned debate . Received a torrent of abuse when I opposed the whole failed scenario ! More common sense amongst the under 50s
Onecott
15th Aug 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
It feels like the vote was emotive,without real facts .
Broncobermie
12th Oct 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
From both sides of the argument!! Why didn’t remainers tell us about the Irish border problem?
Or did they not anticipate this?
viking
12th Aug 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
It does now look as if things have become really, really desperate,on both sides of the arguement with mud slinging, under the table payments to well known lobbyists, MPS trying to get themselves into the limelight etc, etc,
Ya boo politicts at its very best !!
ColinM1
9th Aug 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
The people were conned by the lies and cheating of the Leave campaigners which must be taken into account . The “dark money “ injected illegally by the Tory secretive body the “ Constitutional Research Council ( what a misleading title ! ) of £435 000 to the pro Brexit Irish DUP . Where did it go ? To your favourite rag “ The Metro “ for a wrap around advert .So happens “ The Metro “ doesn't sell in Northern Ireland ! Both Scotland and Ireland comprise 50% of the “ Union “ and voted strongly to remain . In Scotland , all 32 electoral divisions voted Remain and 68 % of the electorate likewise . Unless the re -run is on a proper constitutional basis the outcome is obvious !
Broncobermie
12th Oct 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
About Scotland.Nicola Sturgeon actually said to Andrew Marr on Sunday that 62% of the Scottish people voted to remain.Not true!! 1.3 million Scots did not give a toss and didn’t vote but suddenly they become remainers!! Was this just a slip of the tongue Nicola? AM didn’t pick up on this!!
ColinM1
12th Oct 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
Broncobermie - Nicola was quite correct ( as usual ) ! 62% of those voting voted Remain as did ALL the Constituencies throughout Scotland .
viking
7th Aug 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
Sorry but I have re-read the last paragraph of the above ephistle. This starts with " Brussels has repeatedly" etc. now come on you Remoaners is this not blackmail ? Most people would think there is no other word for it.
Wow, things really are getting desperate now.
Lexie78
6th Aug 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
We have had the referendum. OK, it was badly botched with duff info on both sides, but a second referendum would be just as bad if not worse! Certainly, Eu would demand concessions if Article 50 is withdrawn....absolute disaster!
Democracy is at stake, go with the decision made or " all bets are off"!
Roof Top Crow
6th Aug 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
You have written, that if at some time in the future the majority of voting citizens in the UK wanted to vote to return to EU membership they cannot do so?.

Are you saying that it would be democratic to deny the democratic rights of the voting citizens of the UK?

Have I understood what you are saying?
Wilf
6th Aug 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
I wanted to stay in. However we voted out and I do think in the short term...2-5 years -we will be in a total mess. however how can we vote again? Then the 52% who voted out will say...we want another vote if the ins win. It will be a fiasco of huge proportions...even worse than it is now!
Roof Top Crow
7th Aug 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
The UK has voted for self-harm by voting to leave the EU. So it makes sense that the UK should be given the ability to reverse the self-harm vote. Ideally, it should be whilst we are still in full membership.

It may be that we would still vote to leave. If that was to happen we could be like Farage and say that we must all accept the decision whatever it is. Admittedly he went back on that a couple of days later.
Yodama
4th Aug 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
You can't suppress anything for too long Nana suzie without it wanting to pop up with an explosive opposing force.

You say being a member of the EU has given us peace for over 70 years? Doesn't stop us waging war outside of the EU does it? We are experiencing serious repercussions now.

Our so called peace it seems is at an end.
The paradigms have shifted- we are in a state of a "new" kind of war.

Our porous borders ( Shengen ,EU brainchild ) are they to blame? Several countries ( non EU members ) signed up to this agreement and some of those who are not members of the EU have pulled out citing security threats.

Masses of refugees wanting protection, benefits, housing, schooling, can cripple the EU.
Hidden among these genuine refugees is the sinister arm of terrorism, and we can't control them!

We are on high alert due to pop-up terrorist groups whose "alternative" war, war by terror and whose hit-and-run tactics are making us think twice about going to places like Paris where once, it was a romantic and safe destination.

Our policemen walk around like storm troopers, weaponised ready and twitchy. This is a far cry from the "old" days when a "bobbie" would tell you the time if you asked.

Painting a picture of a Rosy. peaceful, "let's all live in bliss" EU is a thing of the past, the foundations are crumbling, we British should build an ark and take control of our own destination to prevent being dragged under

Sorry about the rant, I do get carried away, but am most sincere in my warnings.
Wilf
6th Aug 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
Its not all that bad. The terrorists are a few nutters here and there. the EU is basically an island in a sea of problems and poverty. We need to enrich and help people in poor countries. Most Brits are better off than ever. we have food, drink, TVs, Cars, peace.....its better than 100 years ago that's for sure!
Nana suzie
4th Aug 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
I don't think the original referendum was taken seriously by the majority of voters. I don't think the majority of voters realised how much a vote NO would effect every part of their lives.
I can understand why a majority of voters who voted, voted yes to leave. Two Conservative Goverments( con/liberal. Conservative ), 8yrs of Austerity. Which a lot of people blamed on the E.U. THE CRASH was caused by very cheap credit and Goverment's all over the world U.S.A/EUROPE having light touch regulation. The BANKERS TOOK THIS TO MEAN THEY COULD DO ANYTHING THEY WANTED WITHOUT CONCEQUENCES AND THEY GOT AWAY WITH IT TAKING THEIR PLATIUM PENSIONS WITH THEM. WE/US PAID FOR THEIR GREED and AVARIS. AND MARK MY WORDS THEY WILL DO IT AGAIN AS THEY NEVER HAD TO STAND UP AND TAKE RESPONCIBILITY FOR WHAT THEY DID.
DO WE AS A COUNTRY WANT TO BE AT THE MERCY OF DONALD TRUMP AND A TRADE DEAL NEGOGAITED BY HIM(he has started a trade war with China+E.U) I know the E.U HAS AN AWFUL LOT OF FAULTS AND NEEDS TOTAL REFORM. SO THAT IT's THE people of the E.U WHO MAKE THE DECISIONS THAT EFFECT THEIR EVERYDAY LIVES. NOT THE BEAUROCRATS WHO ARE IN CHARGE NOW. THE E.U WITH IT'S MOUNTAIN OF FAULTS HAS KEPT THE EUROPEAN CONTINENT AT PEACE FOR 70yrs. The countries that are in the E.U CAUSED TWO WORLD WARS IN THE SPACE OF 27yrs in the early half of the 20th centuary. THE FAR RIGHT IS ON THE RISE WORLD WIDE. IF YOU KNOW YOUR HISTORY YOU WILL REALISE THIS IS A REPEAT OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN EUROPE IN THE 1930'S THE WORLD WAS GOMING OUT OF THE BIGGEST RECESSION THE WORLD HAD EVER SEEN. SOUND FAMILIAR ??? This is a very dangerous time for all of us. Do we really want to be on the outside if DONALD TRUMP decides to PRESS THE NUCLEAR BUTTON(WE WOULD BE NAIVE TO THINK HE WOULDN'T AS HE IS THE MOST UNSTABLE PRESIDENT THE U.S.A HAS EVER HAD) THE WORLD HAS NOT BEEN SO UNSAFE SINCE 1339. IF WE DON'T KNOW OUR HISTORY WE ARE DAMMED TO REPEAT IT.
LEAVING THE E.U IS NOT JUST ABOUT BEING ABLE TO TRADE WORLDWIDE, IT'S ABOUT AN AWFUL LOT THINGS THAT KEEP US IN A WORLD AT PEACE FOR 73yrs. So if we get to vote again or get to vote on the deal for leaving. Please think about what is really going on that the MAJORITY OF US NEVER SEE. NANA SUZIE
Roof Top Crow
3rd Aug 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
A question.

Can anyone tell me what would happen if we leave EU and then realise that leaving was the wrong decision.

A) Can we vote to rejoin the EU
0r
B) We can never vote to rejoin the EU.
viking
4th Aug 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
Only the EEC would be able to rig up a set rules to welcome back any one who had the temerity to leave the clique.
This may involve losing the shirt off one's back.
Lexie78
6th Aug 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
The answer to each question is...Yes! But, ineffective. It is like voting in your living room to join the local tennis club. No use at all unless the tennis club is willing to entertain your application, and then you might be horrified at the "joining fee and the annual subscription"!
Aitchess
3rd Aug 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
Under no circumstances, it is not logical, it would mean if the result was not the one you wanted you could repeatedly ask for another.
Alba19
2nd Aug 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
I have thought long and hard about this and I as being in the leave camp have now felt differently looking back their was not enough information available in which to make an informed choice and it was solely on the immigration issue . Now we see the debacle of Parliament trying to pass the legislation for Brexit that is acceptable to Europe.
So there it is if we have another referendum I expect the majority of l4avers just like me to vote remain.
Darkstar
2nd Aug 2018
3
Thanks for voting!
We've already voted. How many referendums do you want.
Nellbat
1st Aug 2018
4
Thanks for voting!
When we have an Election do people call for a second Election if the party they wanted to win lose? No we don't. David Cameron spent a lot of time organising the Referendum on whether we stay in or leave the EU. It was well publicised that it would be First past the Post voting system with the majority vote winning. We have wasted two years doing nothing to prepare us for BREXIT, with Remoaners throwing their toys out of the pram, having tantrums and demanding we have another referendum. Tough. This is what is called Democracy. How many of the Remoaners asking for a second Referendum didn't even bother to vote in the first Referendum? We are leaving next March. Full stop,
viking
27th Jul 2018
5
Thanks for voting!
Most used word here seems to be" democracy " particularly from the Remoners.
Stop and think about what democracy really entails,.
It is not a word that sits easily with the EEC.
Blackmail, trade offs,old boy networks, biased incentives etc. etc.,and federalisation which is the next avowed step.
This is the EEC version of democracy ??
Roof Top Crow
30th Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
And your evidence for this..?
viking
31st Jul 2018
5
Thanks for voting!
Plenty, plenty.
Claud Juncker.......old boy network, no vote on this one.
Blackmail, biased incentives...............Greek airforce/navy
Federalisation.......sorry unable to obtain copy of the white paper published by the EU. Freedom of information does not apply on this apparently.
Roof Top Crow
1st Aug 2018
-2
Thanks for voting!
Your reply means that you have opinions, to which we are all entitled, but no evidence to support your opinions.
Nellbat
1st Aug 2018
4
Thanks for voting!
You are so right Viking. Democracy doesn't exist in the EU. They want total domination in Europe. If you think about the history of Europe it is eerily close to what Adolph Hitler wanted which led to us defeating him in WW2. These corrupt EU Beaurocrats are trying to do through back door politics what Hitler failed to do then. Sooner we are out and free the better, as their next target is our Armed Services.
Roof Top Crow
1st Aug 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
I am not sure how you have reached your conclusions.

The reconstruction of Europe after the war produced some very strong and clear thinking political leaders. Winston Churchill was one of the clearest thinking people of his time.

I did not write the following. It simply outlines a speech Winston Churchill made in 1946.

Following the Second World War, he was convinced that only a united Europe could guarantee peace. His aim was to eliminate the European ills of nationalism and war-mongering once and for all. He formulated his conclusions drawn from the lessons of history in his famous ‘Speech to the academic youth’ held at the University of Zurich in 1946: “There is a remedy which ... would in a few years make all Europe ... free and ... happy. It is to re-create the European family, or as much of it as we can, and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe.”
JohnC92
27th Jul 2018
-1
Thanks for voting!
Leave will not affect me but will affect my 6 grand children they are the ones who will pay the price if we leave the
Yodama
27th Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
What price will they have to pay JohnC92?
Lionel
27th Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
He won't know but it is what he's read in the press.
Nellbat
1st Aug 2018
4
Thanks for voting!
What price will they have to pay JohnC92. Our children and grandchildren will grow up freer, safer, better off outside the EU. For goodness sake in our whole history we have spent just 45 years as part of the EU, or Common Market as it was originally called. Originally the intention was a trading agreement, but slowly and gradually the Corrupt EU have taken more and more control from more and more European Countries, just as Hitler planned which led to WW2. Money that currently goes on high salaries, huge expense accounts, controlling our farms, our seas, our Laws, will be spent on making Britain Great again for future generations.
Lionel
1st Aug 2018
3
Thanks for voting!
Exactly. No one could have put it better. Thank you.
Westminster
26th Jul 2018
3
Thanks for voting!
We have had a second referendum in 2016, the first one was in 1975.
Roof Top Crow
27th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
I am not saying we should remain or leave. I am not saying how many times we should vote.

I am saying that now we have a lot more information about the advantages and disadvantages of remaining or leaving another Democratic vote would be the next logical step.
Lionel
27th Jul 2018
3
Thanks for voting!
Rooftop, for some of us, perhaps the many ordinary working people, voting leave was a visceral reaction to an alien status quo being laid upon this nation.

Politicians need to be very careful when arguing with that type of voter; they're people of conviction, unlike most Westminster hirelings.
Phoenix122
31st Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
The first referendum was to join the common market not the EU.
Nellbat
1st Aug 2018
4
Thanks for voting!
What benefit would a second referendum have for the country? Our government have had two years to prepare us for getting our freedom back, but instead have been hellbent on trying to appease EU politicians and the Remoaner camp of MP's and former MP's who all look forward to moving to the Political graveyard of Brussels when no longer wanted in UK. They don't want to lose this because of high salaries, huge expense accounts, and protected pension for life. Doesn't take a genius to realise they are out for self-preservation and that is their only interest. We had a democratic vote and the Leave vote once. Accept it and support the country in it's attempts to get back our sovereignty and freedom to trade with who we want, make our own laws, stop the explosion of immigrants from outside EU flooding our country and trying to destroy our existence. We are Great Britain, always have been, and will be again.
Nellbat
1st Aug 2018
5
Thanks for voting!
Very well put Lionel. We want our country back. Our freedom of speech, our democracy, our culture and heritage are all being undermined.
Lionel
1st Aug 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
The first referendum was about your continued membership of the EEC. Wilson knew what was coming in the years ahead and needed a mandate to push it through.

He lied!
Lionel
1st Aug 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
Read my reply to my old adversary RoofTop, above. There's more there.
Roof Top Crow
25th Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
Democracy does not have a timeline, it does not stop at a fixed point in time because a democratic vote has taken place.
If Democracy had stopped in 1975 when we voted to remain in the EU, then, of course, we would not have had a referendum vote June 2016.

Democracy only works properly when voters have enough information to be able to make a balanced decision. We did not have that information. In the 2016 referendum, both sides were appalling. Both sides told lies, both sides made false promises and in the ensuing chaos, no one was sure what the future might look like for the UK.

But what we are getting now, is the reality of what it will mean to the UK if we stay in membership of the EU and what it will really mean to the UK if we are not in membership of the EU.

Our individual responsibility now, is to make sure that we listen to what we are being told. There is a lot of information out there and it is coming from the government, industry, political parties, social media, TV, radio, newspapers, family, friends and of course Silversurfers.

The other 27 EU member countries have all said that if we want more time to think about staying in EU membership or leaving EU membership they will give us that time.

And now that we can be better informed and we can take a properly informed view of what would be best for the UK then logically we should vote again.
Roof Top Crow
26th Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
My post was about how democracy does not stop after one vote. I went a bit further and wrote that we are now able to learn more about the plusses and minuses of EU membership as both sides have had to give us a lot more information.

But since Silversurfers is a place to exchange opinions, can you answer the two following questions.

What has the UK membership of the EU, meant for most people?

What would have been better for the UK if we had not joined the EU?
Lionel
26th Jul 2018
3
Thanks for voting!
This democracy to which you refer, RoofTop, presumably is that which we live under today.

If that is the case, and from you post I cannot see how it can be other, then this is no democracy at all! Allow me to inform you ... and here I quote the British Constitution Group.

'The Recognition of the 1215 Great Charter Magna Carta as comprising the single and sole legal and lawful English (and British) Constitution; the permanent supreme treaty between the people and the successive incumbent heads of state.' This document was not enacted by a parliament and therefore cannot be altered or repealed by a parliament. But is has largely been superseded by mainly Labour governments.

'Common Law economic measures are a natural corollary to the above item for specifically proscribing the Common Law Crimes of Usury and fraudulent Fractional Reserve Lending and returning to the People (through a national government department; treasury) the duty of issuance of interest-free currency and credit to the economy.' Mmmm. Fractional Reserve Lending. Isn't this what caused, if only in part, the 2008 bank crisis?

'Unpatriotic politicians, all of them, must be identified for what they are. People need to see the advantages and benefits which will accrue to the people and nation by isolating and leaving those parties who do not stand for our cherished heritage of the 1215 Great Charter of English Liberties (applicable presently to all the U.K. nations); of Trial by Jury Courts for all causes (not the ex party trial-by-judge); of the Common Law Principle of Equal Justice, laws applying equally to all.' Hello, that's both the Upper Chamber and the Commons this year!

Let's move on a little. Under the Declaration of Rights 1689 it states ... 'no foreign prince, person, prelate, state, or potentate hath, or ought to have, any jurisdiction, power, superiority, pre-eminence, or authority, ecclesiastical or spiritual, within this realm.'

Find an excuse for the increasing EU dominance of this proud nation. I'd be really interested to hear what you have to say. Oh, and it also says, 'Habeas corpus is not to be denied.' Yes really. Yet there have been strong moves to implement to Napoleonic Code here denying Habeas Corpus to all.

It also says free men cannot be imprisoned without cause and yet this Prime Minster, when Home Secretary, signed us into the European Arrest Warrant which of it very essence is in utter contradiction to our laws - laws which are not for any subsequent parliament to repeal because they are in perpetuity.

RoofTop, if you follow up the pointers I've given, and they are but a few of those available, you'll see your so vaunted democracy is no democracy at all.

I await your reply.
Roof Top Crow
27th Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
Good morning Lionel.
What you say is very admirable, but totally out of touch with how our society works today.

The 19th and 20th century created in the UK an extarordinary society with free education, free healthcare and a social welfare sytem that is amomgst the best in the world. Yes I know it has faults and occasionaly it fails, but most of the time it works very well.
.
All of this works because the country is wealthy enough to be able to fund our modern day society. The money comes from direct and indirect taxation and by being in the largest and most successful free trade area in the world.

The system is managed for the people by parliamentary representation and the occasioanl referendum.

Now we are faced with a refendum result that both remainers and leavers recognise will leave the country with less money and individually all of us will be poorer.

Many people will find that acceptable because we will no longer have to agree to EU rules and structures. Rules and structures that we agreed to in 1975.

Other people believe that the financial price of leaving the EU is so high and will cause so much damage to our modern day society that we should remain.

PS.
I note that YouGov reports that the majority of the public would like another referndum on remaining in the EU.
Lionel
27th Jul 2018
3
Thanks for voting!
Rooftop, if an eager desire to maintain, and build upon, the legal and civil foundations of Britain is out of touch in your opinion, then makes you a very dangerous person and it could be construed, a traitor.

You failed to acknowledge the gravity of my points and waffled on about this and that. Please address this first salvo regarding English Law and Constitution. By the way, there's much more to come.
Roof Top Crow
1st Aug 2018
-2
Thanks for voting!
Hello Lionel
Mention of Constitution opens up a very complex and very historic discussion. Most of the discussions surround the fact that Britain does not have a written constitution, but then you know that.

What Britain has is an historic accumulation of various statutes, conventions, judicial decisions and treaties.

I think that Parliamentary sovereignty is as close as we get to a constitution. Hence the call for parliament to be able to make the final decision on leaving the EU.
Nellbat
1st Aug 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
You took the words right out of my mouth jorid. It is insulting and patronising to assume we all based our decision on what the main parties fighting their own agenda told us prior to the Referendum. Most of us made our decision based on what we have seen happen to UK in the 45 years since we joined the EU. We have lost our sovereignty, our Democracy, our Freedom of Speech. We have seen criminals and illegal immigrants given more rights in our country than the ordinary hardworking citizens. We have seen our farmers and our fishermen struggle to survive under EU control. Even from the early days when we saw Food Mountains, Milk Quota's, Fishing restrictions they have controlled us for their benefit not ours.
Nellbat
1st Aug 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
What benefits have we had from being members of the EU? Actually can't think of one benefit. We are geographically part of Europe. We moved backwards and forwards between European Countries. If they needed our skills they were happy to employ our people, and visa versa. What would have been better for UK if we had not joined the EU? Before the EU we traded around the world, we imported and exported what WE wanted from our Commonwealth partners and other countries. Our Farmers and Fishermen produced what we needed with excess being exported. We used what we grew, no restrictions on size, colour, shape. No food wastage because not up to EU standards. No further damage to the Environment by importing foods from Europe because we could not produce our own through their rules. No protectionism penalising our Farmers, our Fishermen, our Mining and Steel Industries. We had money to invest in areas damaged by the ending of these industries not the pittance EU threw back at us as if they were doing us a favour.
Nellbat
1st Aug 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
Typical attitude of a Remainer. EU laws have destroyed our liberty in the UK. When criminals are let off or treated differently because of their skin colour, race or religion. When criminals are given free legal aid to sue the prison service over upset feelings!!! When our children are not safe on the streets of UK. When our pensioners are not safe in their own homes. Our Police, our Courts, and even our Government are being controlled by EU led Left wing lunacy. We are being taken back over a century to when working class people had no rights. That is what EU membership has done to the UK. We have the best Health, Welfare, Social, Education Services in the World. Freedom of Movement has meant thousands are pouring into UK to take advantage of our wonderful services meaning the citizens who have lived and worked all their lives are robbed of vital services and money. We don't need EU membership to accept genuine hardworking Europeans to our Country, it has always happened.
Roof Top Crow
1st Aug 2018
-1
Thanks for voting!
Out of politeness I am replying.

The imbalanced and fractured society you describe does not exist.

You only have to look at the articles, services and reader contributions on the Silversurfers website to know we are all living in a society that is fundamentally balanced and fair.

Outside of Silversurfers consider for a moment the work people put into the NHS and Social care, consider the free time and effort people put into community and charity work. We live in a society where people care for each other.

It makes me very sad to read what you have said today. I could not be further from the truth, I was going to write more and dispute what you have written, but I suspect that nothing will change your mind.

I will not reply to you again.
Roof Top Crow
1st Aug 2018
-1
Thanks for voting!
A small typo in my post, the last paragraph should read.

It makes me very sad to read what you have said today. You could not be further from the truth. I was going to write more and dispute what you have written, but I suspect that nothing will change your mind.
Lionel
1st Aug 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
Well, Rooftop, you put up a black there ole boy.

England does have a written constitution. Unlike the States it's not contained in one document but rather several which were written over many centuries to accommodate an evolving nation.

It begins around 800AD with Alfred the Great compiling a book of law, much of it based on the Ten Commandments and the Levitical Code. It's known as the Liber Judicialis. It is the basis of English Common Law.

1215 saw Magna Carta. Perhaps the most pertinent clause today is our duty to step in and require the Monarch to uphold their contract with the people. Sovereignty lies with the people and the Monarch is bound by that oath to hold an out-of-control government to account. Mmmm. Elizabeth's record doesn't look so good here.

The next is the First Statute of Westminster. 1275. Perhaps the most important clause for us to day is, 'elections are to be free, and no man is by force, malice or menace, to disturb them.' Think on Blair and company.

The next is an amalgam off two written declaration almost a century apart, each designed to reign in the power of Parliament. The Declaration of Right and the Bill of Rights.

They state clearly no foreign prince, person, prelate, state, or potentate hath, or ought to have, any jurisdiction, power, superiority, pre-eminence, or authority, ecclesiastical or spiritual, within this realm.

Therefore the imposition of subjugation to the EU is constitutionally illegal and ... our present monarch, in signing into law such subjugation has acted against her coronation oath. Grave stuff Rooftop, but there's more.

The right to bear arms ... really?

The right to petition the Sovereign...how many know about that?

Free men cannot be imprisoned without cause ... but they are.

The Government cannot arrest any man because he disagrees with the Government’s policies ... Blair's outfit did this on numerous occasions.

Habeas corpus is not to be denied ... Ah, here we have trapped 2 prime minsters and a Home Secretary. Both Blair and Brown wanted to impose the Napoleonic code upon us whereby Habeas Corpus is denied. There May signed into law the European arrest warrant, remember? She denied us our historic right of Habeas Corpus.

These documents were not approved by parliament but by the monarch of the times. They stand in law in perpetuity. They may not be changed. You may notice Parliamentary sovereignty is not mentioned. That's because it doesn't exist. The people are sovereign, parliament is but a servant of the people. What a refreshing concept that is, and so old!
Roof Top Crow
2nd Aug 2018
-1
Thanks for voting!
I think we are both correct. As with many of our conversations it comes down to semantics.

I did not write the following, it comes from one of the universities where students study the social and legal structure Britain.
…..

At present in Britain we have no written constitution, but instead a collection of laws and customs which govern our political system. Along with Israel, we are one of only two democracies in the world not to have a written constitution.
bea747
3rd Aug 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
How dare you! I had enough information to make a properly informed decision and I resent your patronising tone that I was an idiot for making a vote opposite to what you were hoping for.
Roof Top Crow
3rd Aug 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
You have lost me. When did I say you were an idiot ?
Lionel
22nd Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
A second vote? The government is going to have to do a whitewash job to make the result effective since Cameron said he would act on the result of the first vote.

Trouble's a' coming.
Lionel
23rd Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
Jorid, thank you for your kind words. They are appreciated by my wife and I.

I was working on farms in North Yorkshire when the shipyards closed, steel works closed and the coal mines as well. The devastation these acts of economic and political vandalism caused needed to be seen to be believed. Men breaking down in tears in the street ...families ripped asunder by poverty and loss of identity because there was no alternative work. Some men met and talked with me. Sheer hopelessness. Many never worked again.

I was in farming before the EU took a stranglehold on it. Although wages were lower than in other industries we got the life we craved. Piece by very painful piece I witnessed experienced middle aged men thrown off the farms, evicted from their tied cottages and left to rot in a town. Piece by piece the fertile soils of the Vale of York, and other surrounding areas, were 'set aside.' That was, and remains, a crime. A betrayal.

The EU's CAP paid bug subsidies according to the acreage farmed, not, as under the British system, the amount produced. Hence laying aside 3,000 acres was more profitable than farming it, and men were laid off. The Fens, near my birth place, once a producer of vast quantities of fruit and veg now majors on cereals. Jorid, that such highly fertile peat based land should be laid waste with cereals is a crime, another betrayal. But that's the EU!

Once out, and the sooner the better for me, British farmers must justify their existence by producing all they can, cereals, fruit, veg ... and in the face of militant veganism, much more meat, poultry and dairy products.

The CAP has been a raging success for land owners, but an absolute disaster for farmers.
BaW
22nd Jul 2018
5
Thanks for voting!
Referring to WhizzLiz specifically...
Point by point...
You must understand that the bus slogan that the NHS would benefit by £350 million a week was related to what the UK pays into the EU, and what we would save – which could then (when we leave) be spent on the NHS.

Leave EU was not the only organisation to overspend...it was rightly fined £61,000; however, the Liberal Democrats were fined £18,000 for breaking spending rules in the EU referendum (and they were pro-Europe, yet we hear little about that). And the (also pro-Europe) European Movement UK's return for the EU referendum was deemed "incomplete and inaccurate" and was fined £8,750.

With regard to Russian involvement...people must be stupid to believe without question everything they read or see on social media; perhaps they should make the effort to do a little research to check on accuracy before jumping on bandwagons and blaming other countries for the result of what was a democratic process in the UK.

The Good Friday agreement would only be in danger if both sides are intransigent. Which, as we are talking about nationalists and unionists, catholics and protestants, and longstanding enmities, could be the case.

I actually agree that Mrs May has not been clear about what her government intends...but as not only the Remainers in the Commons (some of whom are not representing the wishes of their constituents) and the unelected House of Lords, many of whom are failed politicians with vested interests, but also a large proportion of the civil service seem to be doing their best to scuttle anything she puts forward, I actually feel very sorry for her. It is her own fault for the atrocious general election campaign she ran, but she seems to be trying to deliver what was voted for in June 2016.

I don't understand why there should be a loss of EU doctors and nurses ... the UK would be sure to recruit to the NHS – hopefully the brightest and the best from any country.

The UK has possibly the best multi-cultural society in the world. We have always welcomed those who wish to contribute to the country and helped those who are in desperate need. That won't change.

Our relationship with the President of the USA is not relevant to the Brexit discussion.

As to the tiny margin between in and out votes, may I point you to the very small percentages by which some recent general elections have been decided. I for one really did not want Mr Blair the first time he was voted in, let alone the second of third. As you say, the UK voted for Brexit by 52% to 48%, from a turnout of just over 72% of voters. In 1997 Tony Blair was disastrously elected as our Prime Minister winning 43.2% of the votes from a turnout of 71.4%, so not even a majority of those who voted actually wanted him – but we did not demand a re-election. In 2001, Labour won only 40.7% from a turnout of only 59.4%. Again, a minority, but no re-election. And in 2005, they only won by 35.2% from a turnout of 61.4%. In 2010, God help us, we got the coalition from a slightly higher turnout of 65.1%. And in 2015, the Tories won 36.9% of the votes.

My point here is that in a democracy, the majority vote wins and we should not re-run an election just because we don't like the first result.
Lionel
22nd Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
BaW - what on earth does that stand for?

I've not posted on this thread so far because of a genuine family tragedy - a parent should not ever have to bury their off spring. Enough of that.

If we voters believe only what we are fed then food poisoning will result. And it has. In terms of the referendum, we are at the vomiting stage I think. The worst is yet to come.

Yet the people voted against remaining in the EU, as you so rightly point out by a greater margin than many recent elections. I've yet to understand how the Blair-child got re-elected twice.

Having spent much of my life in farming my stance against the EU is visceral. So much land is laid to waste, so many farm jobs closed that I can barely understand what the hell is going on. We went from a time of produce all you can, we need it all to a 7,000 acre group of farms I worked on setting aside 3,000 acres! Yes, it was made more profitable for them to do that. Without quoting Michael Caine, nobody knows that!

I fully accept your points, but there was, and is, a practical side. What we don't grow we import, at cost.
Coathamlass
22nd Jul 2018
4
Thanks for voting!
I just wish the Government would get on with it! The EU are a bunch of un-elected spongers & I'm certain Great Britain can forge ahead once we get our freedom& sovereignty back. We joined a Common Market not a United States of Europe. I think President de Gaulle kept doing us a favour when he kept saying "Non" to our joining in the beginning.
Lionel
22nd Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
DeGaulle knew, having spent the war years here, that we are a fiercely independent people, an island nation that doesn't compromise or submit to tyrants.

Perhaps that was de Gaulle's last gift to England, a word in repayment for the liberation of France.
WhizzLiz
21st Jul 2018
-5
Thanks for voting!
Yes we should have a 2nd referendum because of the lies told during the campaign (e.g.what was written on the Boris Johnson bus about the millions that the NHS would receive) , the proven cheating by the Leave campaign in the amount of excess money they spent on their campaign, the possible interference by Russia, the danger of damaging the Good Friday agreement, the loss of jobs , the lack of clarity and viability of May's proposal, her reliance on the DUP for votes, the loss of EU doctors and nurses and other health workers to the NHS, the erosion of our multi-cultural society, having a 'special relationship' with a mysogynist, racist, sexist, climate change denier, gun lover, who 'puts America first' by wrenching Mexican children from their parents and shutting them in cages, cosies up to Putin, shamelessly denies something he's just said . . . . . . . the list goes on and on

On top of that , there was only a tiny margin between the original votes not a landslide ( 48 : 52 )
So I'd say the question should be

WHY WOULDN"T YOU HAVE
A SECOND REFERENDUM ?
Yodama
22nd Jul 2018
5
Thanks for voting!
Why wouldn't you have a second referendum WhizzLiz..........Simple, because the vote by democratic means clearly stated that we should leave,
LEAVE WE MUST AND PRETTY SHARPISH, NO MORE DITHERING!!
Lionel
22nd Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
Yodama
21st Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
Yes let's have a second referendum, and a third and a fourth ad nauseam, a sop for the beleaguered public who think their votes will actually herald a change, it won't make any difference at all however many times we vote.

Behold! The second act of the great Magical Brexit Show. Blowing smoke up the common peoples keisters!
Do we clap or do we boo?
It is all theatre after all, to bemuse the public so that we actually imagine our voices are relevant.
Why is everyone fighting when we know we can't change anything? Defeatist you may say....I prefer realistic.

The puppet masters already have a plan and it is in operation. We WILL have the promised New World Order whether we vote or not, they won't allow any random vote to interfere with plans that have been formulated since the 1800's.

Why delude ourselves that our feeble voices will be heard? Why rail at puppet politicians who are doing the bidding of the hidden elite ? (Secretive and unelected by the way!)
We are a divided nation, divided over something we have no control over, the machine trundles inexorably on.

Divide and conquer springs to mind, we are most certainly a divided nation. Don't hold your breath for the conquering bit.....it's coming very soon to a theatre near you!

Nobody seeing the elephant in the room??
Brexit in or out, a mere irrelevancy in the greater scheme of things.

I am cynical, tired of BS, tired of being lied to, tired of lying politicians, tired of being discounted and manipulated when It is my world too.

Tired of the great theatre show that is Brexit.
Can we have a different theatre manager please?
Lionel
24th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
Yodama, whilst I can't disagree with you, I can believe another force is at work in the Western World. Hedonism.

A few months ago I picked up a copy of a most wanted read: Neil Postman's 1985 book about his television age that was nearly prophetic about our computer/phone/texting/gaming age. It’s called Amusing Ourselves to Death. Postman's thesis is that our society was more in danger of fulfilling the dystopian vision of Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World than George Orwell’s 1984, and makes a powerful case.

Orwell warns that we will be overcome by an externally imposed oppressive regime. Huxley, however, sees no Big Brother is required to deprive people of their inherited freedoms, society and history. People will love their oppression, adore the technologies which deliver a perceived security of food and entertainment.

Orwell feared those who would ban books. Huxley feared that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.

In Brave New World Revisited, the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever watchful to oppose tyranny “failed to take into account man’s almost infinite appetite for distractions.” In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure!

Would you not agree, Yodama, the bulk of UK people are drowning in a level of greedy pleasure of such proportions even our grand parents could conceive? That the fear of being deprived of their foodstuffs and distractions fuelled Project Fear in all it's guises. From my remote outpost it looks to me to be the case; people are more feared of their 'lifestyle' being inhibited than the wider picture of domination by a foreign power. They live for today and beggar tomorrow!

Or perhaps both Orwell's and Huxley's visions are at work here.

What do you think?
Yodama
27th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
You are bang on the money Lionel.
We do seem to be the ham in the Huxley-Orwell sandwich.
Hedonism? I may opt out of the human race and study this hedonistic lifestyle myself, become a lotus eater even. Damned if it means anything that you work like a slave all your life only to be either ignored or cheated and discounted in your twilight years.

Interesting book you mention. Postman's book (among others who have written in the same vein) is prophetic. We are indeed sacrificing our freedoms for the state of so called bliss we are offered. At the same time, we are being herded like cattle into patterns of behaviour orchestrated by the media or rather the faceless who are orchestrating the media.

Controlled by cameras, face recognition, data collection, now UK police using PredPol, predicting who will be committing a crime and where. USA has been using it for a while. The movie "Minority Report" says it all. I think we need lots and lots of new prisons!
Movie makers are giving us a heads-up on the future it seems.

Loving our servitude and not actually realising it is servitude and that we "think" we have freedom.
Is this something new or has it been going on for all time, a dripping tap of control, droplet by droplet until we cannot cope with the deluge of "bliss." What then?
There was a torture perpetrated a long time ago in India when they fed the criminals copious amounts of sweets, sweets make you thirsty and cry out for water, the water was withheld from the prisoners.....another kind of bliss it seems.

Are we free now, is democracy a freedom.......not on your Nelly! We are just hypnotised to believe we have choices.
When computers take over our lives, when AI reaches singularity and matches the human brain, in about 2045, we ( well not me, I will be long gone.) will be like Elon Musk warns, their "pet cats" eating or drinking our soma like good little kitty cats.

Imagine never having to work, everything provided for by AI rulers who make all the decisions?
Maybe it will be a good thing, humanity has mucked up the planet over the thousands of years they have had to "get it right!" Perhaps AI will do a better job? Only time will tell!
We are just ants in the scheme of things, evolution!!

I saw a bad movie about a dystopian future called " IDIOCRACY" a while back, supposed to be a comedy but with a dark message interwoven in the plot. Quite prophetic!

The question then arises, do we the population really have a say in what happens by voting? It's like trying to vote for a particular shark in a shark infested custard, you are going to fall in and get eaten despite your delusion that you have chosen the right shark. The chef who made the custard has the last say.
Sorry that I am sort of off piste with this post, it is sort of relevant to the question in the end.
Lionel
27th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
Well, Yodama, you've caught me out in your reply. I hadn't expected you to agree!
Yodama
28th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
Caught the eloquent Lionel out? Can't believe it!!
Just something for you to look at when you have time Lionel, if anyone is under the illusion that we matter at all.

https://youtu.be/OHlv9XowNcw

https://youtu.be/8ZhIrYxOQsI
Lionel
29th Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
Thank you for the links, they're at the top of my must view list. I'll comment when I've seen them.

And I thank you also for the accolade of eloquence. I had't quite thought of it that way
MattMBlack
20th Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
The British government doesn’t seem to know what it’s doing.
We need a deal if we leave. Having No Deal would ruin the economy and jobs.
Lionel
22nd Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
Strefo
20th Jul 2018
3
Thanks for voting!
Before joining the EU we did deals and trading with other nations very satisfactorily, so what are the "remainers" worried about?
Also if we had another referendum, remember what happened to Ireland when they said "no" to one some years ago. The second one, which was held because of this refusal, resulted in what the EU wanted, a "yes". If the first result had been a "yes" do you think that the EU would have held another one ?
It is like saying you do not agree with the Cup Final result, so it should be played again so you can win this time.
glostagg34
20th Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
Please get us out ASAP
ElsieD7
20th Jul 2018
-1
Thanks for voting!
That result tells me that if we did have a second referendum then leave would win again so what would be the point?
alisonmay
20th Jul 2018
3
Thanks for voting!
Many people are not satisfied as more info is revealed.
Lionel
22nd Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
Sub standard - sack 'em all.
TheHairyOne
23rd Jul 2018
-1
Thanks for voting!
And replace them with whom?
Lionel
23rd Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
Professional, Hairline, professionals, not career politicians or Civil Servants. Agriculture must, absolutely must be run by a farmer. DTI by a businessman familiar with trading across the globe. Got the idea?

Career politicians have lost people's trust. Let's get people in power who understand an industry or service, people who don't need to make a well provided for career off the back of some very dubious political decisions and infighting.
ChristineN6
20th Jul 2018
4
Thanks for voting!
We should not have another referendum. Do we have to keep on having them until everyone agrees on the result - cos that aint gonna happen. I am a strong Brexiteer but had the result gone the other way (which I fully expected it to) then I would accept the result, may not have been happy about it, but would agree that 'majority rules'. We just need everyone to be on the same side and get on with the job. Too much time wasted already.
ElsieD7
20th Jul 2018
3
Thanks for voting!
You are right Christine, we Brexiteers would have accepted the result if the remainders won, why cannot these remoaners just accept the result and stop moaning about it? Undemocratic people it seems to me.
TheHairyOne
22nd Jul 2018
-1
Thanks for voting!
YOU might have accepted such a result. The majority who voted leave would not.
Lionel
22nd Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
Well frankly, Hairy, it's time they grew up. We had to, so why not them?
TheHairyOne
23rd Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
UKIP? The Daily Mail? The Sun? Grow up?
I think you are being unduly optimistic.
Lionel
23rd Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
Are you sure? How can you be so certain?
davestanleymarshall
20th Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
Our 2016 referendum result was I believe based on hype around what benefits we may achieve by leaving the EU but not necessarily what negatives could follow.

A second referendum might not sit well with the principals of democracy so my view is that any second referendum should be directed to a vote on the deal offered. If the deal isn't good enough then we have to choose whether we stay or remain and the conditions of any 'stay' would need to reflect our existing terms and conditions i.e. not be worse

I don't think anyone believes the EU can survive in its current format but as a trading block it offers many benefits so it needs change if it is to survive. Change is far easier to control from within and leaving the EU will prohibit that process for sure.
Greatgran6
20th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
I agree with the statement that the EU needs changing and that you can only change anything from within and not if we just criticise from without.
If every citizen had voted the result then would have been more democratic. It seems that a lot of younger people had not, or been able to register to vote and blame the "Silver " generation for voting leave.
I originally voted to join a trading organisation not the complicated present EU.
viking
20th Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
Change from within if we stay in ?? Don't you remember that Dave our then PM. went to Brussels with a plan for a few changes that would make all the difference to the huge waste which takes place within the EU.
Dear Dave was sent home with a flea in his ear, and a refusal by the EU Junta to even discuss his proposal.
This infuriated so many of the cabinet it then became the start of a proper plan to leave the EU.
If blame is to be pointed at someone for the farce which is with us at the moment, it has to be with the EU for refusing to even listen to David Cameron.
If certain European countries and their EU staff are on the "gravy train" why should they want to change anything ??
It seems that only the UK who have been double "stitched up" by the EEC rules and regulations want to see change.
Lionel
22nd Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
Nonsense. The vote said it all.
Lionel
22nd Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
Lionel
24th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
Perfectly summarised Hank. Thank you.
Malcmister
19th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
If we have another referendum, there will be some that won’t agree with that result, so will we have a 3rd & 4th & 5th.
Where will it end.
MaureenA2
19th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
Brexit won, end of.
MrsPat
19th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
I think we should just stay in the EU. Life is not that bad in the UK and why risk it getting worse. We have travel to Europe made easy, we have a friendly continent we trade with and we have had no major wars in Europe for the past 70 years. I cannot think of a good reason to leave?
RobertB44
18th Jul 2018
3
Thanks for voting!
Will the Government just get on with our leave proposals which should totally favour us I.e no paying of a divorce bill, a free trade agreement, total control over our borders and membership still of the security and policing organisations. They need us more than we need them and I’ve just listened to Boris Johnson’s speech in Parliament which is on the BBC news. An inspired speech by any politician on how things have gone wrong since the referendum result was announced and talked about at the Mansion House conference two years ago.
LesleyC7
18th Jul 2018
3
Thanks for voting!
We Leavers are not stupid, we knew what we were voting for. It's become a farce because Remainers are doing the negotiating! If Cameron had had half an inkling that he would lose and had prepared for that fact, it would have been easier to leave!
Dennis Dennis
18th Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
Why was it that we did not have a vote when we went into the EU and yet we had to vote to leave ?? We have voted on this question now and it should stand, we cannot keep voting on things time after time, get over it.
RobertB44
19th Jul 2018
-1
Thanks for voting!
Totally agree let’s just get on with it
ColinM1
18th Jul 2018
-2
Thanks for voting!
Now that the Brexit crooks have been discovered , it is quite clear that the Referendum was totally flawed and un democratic . Throw the whole stupid concept in the bucket and remain in Europe where we belong !
ColinM1
19th Jul 2018
4
Thanks for voting!
Tempus fugit ! The Leave campaign has been totally discredited for not only ignoring the electoral law but committing criminal acts. “ Can we please get on with it ? “ is , with respect , exactly what we cannot do! It has become clear that the fraudulent electoral activity has been on the increase .

In early 2016, Darren Grimes, a 21-year-old fashion student from Durham, set up a social media campaign to encourage young people to vote to leave the European Union. “BeLeave” raised the princely sum of £21.51 in three months.
Then, in the two weeks before the Brexit referendum, Grimes received a series of massive donations, including £625,000 from the Vote Leave campaign. This money, it was subsequently discovered, was paid directly to a Canadian data analytics firm called Aggregate IQ. It was never even resting in the young student’s account.
On Tuesday, the UK’s elections watchdog reported Grimes and a senior Vote Leave executive to the police. In a stinging report, the Electoral Commission found that Vote Leave had broken the law by failing to include Grimes’s spending in their return.
The official Leave campaign breached spending limits by almost half a million pounds. That’s a significant amount in British politics, especially in a knife-edge referendum like Brexit.
AlanA1
20th Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
What about the nine million Cameron spent on the leaflets that was a lot of public money a bit different from £625,000, but then the Remainers will try any trick they can to get the Lawfull result changed
ColinM1
20th Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
Fair response Alan . The £ 9 million spent by Cameron was a document stamped with Government crest and not regarded as an electoral expense . Cameron ( and May ) were Remainers and the document was pro Remain . Not a kosher arrangement . I assume as it was pre Election it did not come into the Electoral Regulations . . The funding of the Leave brigade sadly comes within the realms of Dark Money an issue which has been conveniently avoided be amongst others the BBC and the leader of the Scottish Tories Ruth Davidson who has body swerved any discussion on this topic . Beware two faced skunks like Rees Mogg who stand to gain mega bucks from a Brexit settlement .
Jbrid
18th Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
Since before the referendum, I have been asking for just one demonstrable, verifiable benefit of leaving the EU. This means all the Daily Mail soundbites about mythical trade deals, taking control of borders (which we already have), taking back sovereignty (which we have never lost) are all unacceptable. Oddly no-one in over two years has yet given me an answer.

The following are demonstrable facts not opinions:

- Since the referendum non-EU immigration has increased.
- Since the referendum prices have risen.
- The government's forecasts are that everyone will be worse off outside the EU.
- The Tory party refused to implement the standard EU restrictions on free movement which could have controlled EU migration.
- Many major services organisations have moved high earning staff out of the UK or have made plans to do so.
- The NHS is struggling to replace the EU staff who have moved away.

All of the above were called scaremongering when they were warned about. What are they called now they have actually happened?
[deleted]
18th Jul 2018
4
Thanks for voting!
Jbrid
18th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
I suggest, Jorid, that you do some proper research since what you have written has no basis in fact. As a simple example, our fishing industry suffered from a range of issues not least over fishing. Nonetheless, it was awarded substantial share of the fishing rights but a number of the fishermen decided they would do better to sell their rights and did - to EU fishing vessels. What is left sells at least half their catch to the EU and will lose this market with Brexit. So far from saving British fishing, Brexit may well damage it further.

I suspect most of your information has come from the Daily Mail or similar unreliable sources.
viking
19th Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
As you seem to be able to obtain information about the internal workings of the EU, perhaps you may be able to explain the federalisation white paper published this year, and what the consequences will be for the people who wish to remain. Freedom of information does not apply to the EU.
Jbrid
18th Jul 2018
-1
Thanks for voting!
We had a referendum in 1975 which was in no way misleading (an excuse often peddled by Leave supporters) when I knew and understood exactly what I was voting for. The minority Tory extremists were never happy with this and campaigned to have the result overturned which they did in the latest referendum. Apparently now they have campaigned to get a different decision, no-one else must be permitted to do the same even though it is now proven that their 'win' was only achieved by illicit means.

I despair with the sad delusions of those who stick by their beliefs in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I really thought such attitudes were the preserve of flat-earthers.
[deleted]
18th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
Jbrid
18th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
If you don't want to be described as a flat earther I suggest not behaving like one. Seek out independent sources of information rather than those funded by a small cartel of off shore millionaires.
Shazzer56
18th Jul 2018
4
Thanks for voting!
Yes I think Bexit will be a disaster for the UK. I live in northern Ireland and we are in turmoil as to how this will affect the border. Will we have to have a passport to walk across the road at various border points.? So far there is no solution and the question remains unanswered.
anniegc
18th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
We have had a referendum and the vote was leave .
The Government are just trying to wriggle out of their responsibility as so many of them want to stay.
What was the point of the referendum if they weren't going to act on it ?
Wilko
17th Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
We voted, but feel betrayed by parliament. I thought we lived in a democracy, but they are refusing to honour the result. I am fed up with remainers saying we didn’t know what we were voting for. I voted to get back our sovereignty, so no court would be able to over rule our High Court. What is the point in having another referendum, when parliament will do what it wants, regardless of the result!!
[deleted]
18th Jul 2018
2
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Roof Top Crow
18th Jul 2018
3
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Is that the same decline that made the UK the 2nd biggest economy in the EU and the 5th biggest economy in the western world.

Or maybe it is the same decline that created one of the best health services in the world and is free at the point of delivery.

Then again it might be the same decline that has given us one of the lowest levels of unemployment in the EU.
Wilko
18th Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
Totally agree Jorid
KarlH
17th Jul 2018
2
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Did I say leave I meant remain
Lionel
24th Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
Many a slip twixt cup and lip!
KarlH
17th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
I voted leave and I think it is a massive damaging mistake to leave EU mostly because of human rights, pension legislation and workers rights, however the vote was cast and the UK must live with the consequences. Pre-fascism.
MarjorieP9
17th Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
We were not given enough information to be able to make a decision, consequently the country is now in 'a bit of a mess'. Having said that the vote was made and should be adhered to. Incidentally I voted remain.
Jbrid
18th Jul 2018
-3
Thanks for voting!
Total nonsense. In a democracy it is always permissible for votes to be overturned, especially when new information becomes available. Otherwise why bother with general elections?
Wilf
19th Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
Jbrid, I agree with you I think we need another decisive vote once and for all to clear the air now that people know a lot more and this time the government should outline the pros and cons.
Lionel
24th Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
Wilf, you assume a party government can ever be non partisan. I don't believe that is the case.

If it were why didn't Cameron also fund £9.3 million for a Leave booklet, so as not to queer the pitch?

I don't see another vote on EU membership as being decisive - it will be as rigged as the last one, that's the nature of our 21C democracy, keeping pace with scandalous African dictatorships.
georgine
17th Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
We voted out so cannot see what the problem is.
VeraS
17th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
Already had vote no need for another
sladlad
17th Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
I voted to remain at the time, but the whole idea of democracy is that you go with the majority.... I do sympathise with the P.M however. what with hard breakers, customs dealers, remainers, and those who would like a limited break, she is in a no win situation, and cannot keep everybody happy.
Roof Top Crow
17th Jul 2018
5
Thanks for voting!
Democracy reflects the will of the people at that time. Democracy doe not end or have a timeline when a vote has been taken.
thegirlsmum
17th Jul 2018
0
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We were told af nauseam by Cameron Osborne Clegg and milliband that the world would fall in if we voted out, there would be no going back blah blah blah. But now that the vote was to leave all who voted to leave are ignorant uneducated racist peasants. I’m only unhappy that we didn’t stop the direct debits the next day.
Lionel
24th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
Good point, and so true!
Billythequiche
17th Jul 2018
5
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Would you require a second general election if the party you support lost? No, that's not how the system works. Part of our British culture is that we accept such results until the next scheduled election.
If you look at those shouting for a second referendum the fall into three groups:
The absolute remainers who would keep having another until they get the result they want,
The politicians who have failed and been side-lined who are out for revenge,
Those with political or fiscal second agenda that will benefit them alone.
At the risk of repeating my self, those who have disdained the voters may find themselves discarded by voters and/or party.
Lionel
24th Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
I couldn't agree more with your last sentence Billy. Perhaps I would say re-instate the death penalty for treason and try them in a court of law.

If today was a Second World War scenario we would be talking about a powerful and vocal fifth column in our political sphere. Had that then been the case I think we would all now be speaking German.
Billythequiche
25th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
Thanks Lionel. I have never been politically active, too busy earning a living and bringing up a family. I must say that if I was younger now I would certainly be so. I really despair of the present crop of politicians who purport to represent us. The present government, instead of seeking consensus on the most important issue in a generation, are tearing themselves apart for self-serving reasons, often in defiance of the views of those who elected them.
My father, who was a dedicated Labour supporter for all of his life, would be disgusted by the current crop. A puppet leader controlled by Marxist infiltrators who would use Labour as a flea uses a dog. I remember similar types and the way they treated ''dilutees'', that gives away my age, Ha Ha.
Stay well my friend, I enjoy reading your comments.
Lionel
25th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
Hello Billy, I've never been a political animal as such. Yes, in my teens in London the shenanigans of Wilson's outfit were very entertaining, more so than most films, but later, in farming I'd listen to Radio 4 (before it became the flagship for British feminism in 1996). 12 hours on a combine or tractor gets a little boring. Similarly on the North York Moors when shepherding, I had a tranny. During the night it was the World Service.

More of a political onlooker than anything else.

But 55 years of watching the soap opera which is British politics with people dying mysteriously - Gaitskill was the first I knew of- others holding high office in an alcoholic stupor - George Brown - raging egos clawing their way to the top in so many layers of deception they forgot their lines - Tony Blair - John Major's insistence he new what was best for Britain when even his M.Ps knew otherwise and guess what, a Tiller Girl as the Speaker of the House - Betty Boothroyd.

You just couldn't write this stuff, let alone sell it to a TV company for production!

And this latest bowl of sour grapes, Brexit ... well, everyone's teeth are on edge right now, no matter their stance. It's easier to read War and Peace in one very long sitting in the Doctor's surgery than believe what's happening now.

Hey Ho! Who can ever say politics is dull? Better than most TV programmes these days. It's Dallas and Dysentery, Peyton Place and South Park with comedy to spare. But still I have a British Passport, Oh, it's an EU passport now!
Billythequiche
26th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
As usual you are right and amusing but it was the remark about combines and tractors that pushed my nostalgia button. I spent most of my childhood and teenage years up to marrying in a Lincolnshire town, a ''rotten borough''. My memories are of wandering the fields of the ''land settlement'' farms all around. Perfect peace and all you could eat for the picking. Happier and more innocent times.
viking
17th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
J Greening had a reasonably senior post in government, but because of her capabilities was slid sideways into a more junior position.
Sour grapes must have existed between the ladies, so in Parliament the way to get your own back is to suddenly take an opposing stance. JG is playing ducks and drakes.
Lionel
24th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
Yes, she might yet prove to be a worthy adversary.
jeanmark
17th Jul 2018
3
Thanks for voting!
At the time, people voted for what they believed to be the right way forward, be that leave or remain. What I can't understand is why are some so scathing of people who wanted to remain, why use terms like 'remoaner'. They made their choice for a reason so why treat them as if they have no right to be respected for their choice. Not all kick up a fuss about having to accept a result they were not happy about.
thegirlsmum
17th Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
It’s the vitriol that those who voted remain are spouting that is the problem. Because they didn’t get what they wanted everyone is uneducated and/or a racist. All these years I have swallowed down Blair/Cameron/Brown when I really wanted to kick the tv but just fumed because that’s democracy. Seems that only works when people get the “right” answer. If they don’t all these multi millionaires appear from the woodwork to overturn a vote that happened when people were told over and over that there would be no 2nd vote. Hypocrites
Topgranny
17th Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
I understand what you are saying. My only gripe is that many who voted to remain seem to feel that the wrong decision was made in the end and we should try again! Had it been the opposite result and Brexiteers wanted a second shot at it remainers would no doubt make the same comments.
jeanmark
18th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
I belive the problem lay with such a small majority and that is why 'ordinary' people feel it was an unfair result. If Cameron had not been so arrogant and had had the foresight to set a percentage, the result may have been different. If the majority still voted to leave, those 'ordinary' people who voted to remain may have been more accepting. I see no point in trying again.

As an aside, a friend who is a theatre manager had to try and support her Spanish theatre nurses who were told by patients to f...k off home the day after the vote! I don't believe either side expected that kind of behaviour even if it was a minority who were responsible.
Topgranny
18th Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
Totally agree. Cameron has a lot to answer for. He might have deserved more respect had he stayed on and seen it through. Don’t think we could have been much worse off than now! I just can’t wait for it all to be sorted - just as long as we are out of EU. On our terms!

Your comment about the treatment of the nurses is appalling. Some people can be so horrible.
jeanmark
18th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
Jorid, you missed the point about the nurses. I am aware they did not represent the majority of the people but that didn't help those who were insulted. However, nurses and other health care professionals have always had to have a post to come to because of registration etc. so that doesn't change.

The NHS is crumbling, not because of non- British people using it, but because it has become a victim of its own success. UK citizens expect the impossible for 'free', regardless of cost and I am a firm believer that leaving the EU will not improve the situation.
Roof Top Crow
17th Jul 2018
-2
Thanks for voting!
Referendums are not legally binding, the Government could choose to ignore the results of the 2016 referendum. However, this current government says they are choosing to follow the wishes of the electorate that voted in 2016 to leave the EU.

It is two years since the referendum and in that time 1.2 million people in the UK have died. The voting demographics of the 2106 referendum say that that should there be a referendum now, the percentage would be around 52% to remain and 48% to leave.
NikkiB56
17th Jul 2018
3
Thanks for voting!
Why not just carry on voting until you get the result you want even though all Voters were advised it was a one-time decision? I will concede that neither the Leave or the Remain campaign truly gave accurate information to Voters on how to make their decision.
I, however, would still Vote the same and now would have no doubts whatever.
Wilf
17th Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
Welcome back Roof Top!. My view I have expressed many times is the fact the electorate were not advised about the pros and cons of leaving in hard facts by HM Government. I have to say its immaterial if 1.6 million have died in 2 years. In 20 years 16 million will have died by your calculations. Should we have another referendum then?
Rita49
17th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
Fascinating! Unless you can speak to the dead, how can anyone possibly assume that the majority of those who died since the referendum would have voted Leave? All 1.2 million of them might have been Remainers. This is the oddest use of statistics I've ever come across.
Roof Top Crow
18th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
Demographic analysis of the 2016 referendum very clearly shows that older people mostly voted leave and younger people mostly voted remain.

Since older people are more likely to die than younger people and people are reaching voting age faster than people are dying you would get a change in the result if you were to hold the referendum again.

Have a look on the yougov website.
Wilf
18th Jul 2018
-2
Thanks for voting!
I saw a poll about a year ago that said even if the young did vote in numbers that represented their age group it would still be a leave vote but this time by 51/49 to leave instead of 52/48. By the way I voted to stay but like most people am unable to understand the arguments as they have not been put out by HM Gov in a structured way the public need to understand.
Roof Top Crow
18th Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
Hello Wilf. It is not just the Demographics.
Most polls now tell us that many, many "leave" voters realise how damaging it will be if we leave the EU and given another vote, they would vote to stay.
Wilf
18th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
I do tend to agree with that Roof Top. A lot more information has now been given to the electorate. I actually think we need a second vote as the first one was such a farce in terms of lack of information. However if the 2nd vote went to stay in the UK the Brexiteers would go ballistic and then ask for a 3rd one. Where does all this stop?
LindaH39
17th Jul 2018
7
Thanks for voting!
I voted out ! I knew it was going to be hard and the unelected big wigs in Europe would make I as difficult as possible... but all those years ago we didn’t vote to be a European country we voted to be in the common market.... this didn’t include our laws, lives and boarders being run by Brussels.... OUT IS OUT !
Helen Highwater
17th Jul 2018
12
Thanks for voting!
We had a referendum - and the majority voted Leave. That is democracy and there should be no more pussyfooting around.
Pete37
17th Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
The Tory party is splittin, Parliament is in torment there seems to be nothing happening other than trying to keep the Conservative party from disintegration. Parliament should put the Country's interests first. As it seems unable to do it at this time, then a second referendum would at least give Parliament a chance of recovery.
MaxineF
17th Jul 2018
5
Thanks for voting!
We have already had one and the people voted.
SusanB317
17th Jul 2018
3
Thanks for voting!
I live abroad and despite having intentions of returning to uk soon I could not vote to remain
LindaAllanR
17th Jul 2018
4
Thanks for voting!
We've voted once so why vote again just because remainers didn't like it, well they will just have to except It! It was after all the people's vote!!!
jacacc1210
17th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
We should all be allowed to vote on what the terms of the deal is to leave ! When the vote took place in 2016 nobody knew what the outcome and the details of leaving would mean for us all.
Only by having another referendum on the terms of leaving can we truly know what we are voting for.
If we voted to leave then there is no turning back, if we vote to stay then people have voted on what the terms of the deal is and have taken everything into consideration.
Until everybody ( Parliament & EU ) has agreed the detail of what these terms are, then we are all as much in the dark now then when we voted in 2016 on what it means to each and every one of us and the cost to us individually and our country.
The conservative party have sat on their backsides for two years and thought a battle amongst themselves and have had no unity. It has been more about certain individuals trying to gain power & leadership. The Labour party have been just as bad as they sit on the fence and wait for a chance of another general election without saying nothing or little at best.
NikkiB56
17th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
The one thing that both the Leave & Remain Campaign agreed on was, that to Vote 'Leave the EU' we would become an Independent Sovereign Country, we would then be able to make our own rules & regulations and leave the ECJ jurisdiction, we would be outside both, the Customs Union & the Single Market. That is was what the majority Voted for and we were not asked to Vote on the terms on how that happens!
jacacc1210
17th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
It is a common fact that most people voted on the immigration issue and they did so without all the facts & figures that go along with Brexit. How can you possibly vote for something unless you have all the facts and figures in front of you to make a fully informed decision ? That is what the government is put in power to do and that is why it is the people of our great county should decide its fate.
When we were asked to vote we were being asked to vote blindly without knowing the full truth, full facts and figures. Both sides continually lied about all of this throughout the campaign and nobody could have know what the true cost to the public would be.
NikkiB56
17th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
My first vote ever was the European Communities membership referendum in 1975, so I have lived all my adult life with Britain being part of the EU. How anyone could have decided which way to vote based on either the Leave or Remains Campaigns, I do not know. They were both extreme & exaggerated and both unbelievable. The facts & figures were there available to find via the internet. The truth is another matter because so much is unknown, at present nobody knows for sure how leaving is going to affect the UK. The thousands of job that will be lost, trade & flights coming to a standstill, thousands of pounds suddenly being available to be spent on the NHS, until after the event nobody knows who was telling porkies. Todays EU was not what I voted to Remain in when I voted in 1975, it has changed beyond belief. There are more negative's about staying in the EU than the benefits it offers. Admittedly it is proving far harder and more complicated to leave than what we were led to believe, but then nobody in truth ever expected Leave to win the vote!
Rhianjo
17th Jul 2018
3
Thanks for voting!
I knew exactly what I wanted. Leave. as did the majority of the country. Are we to have referendum after referendum until those pitiful objectors get their way. I will still vote leave for a better future for my grandchildren
KathleenG9
17th Jul 2018
3
Thanks for voting!
Why should we have a second referendum the first one got the result the people wanted so stick to it. We need to get on with it and look forward to the future not keep looking back. The people that voted stay should just accept it and let the country move on to a better future. We can't keep going to a vote until the stayers get what they want that's totally wrong its like giving in to your child when they spit the dummy out. I voted leave and I am sticking to my vote
Lydia321
17th Jul 2018
8
Thanks for voting!
And if we did and people again voted leave, would we wait another year and have another referendum, then another one until the remainers get a yes?
jeanmark
17th Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
I think it would depend on the proportion of the vote. If there was another referendum I believe it should have to state clearly what the majority should be for the vote to be accepted, A 4% difference was always going to be controversial.
Pussk2
17th Jul 2018
4
Thanks for voting!
I was a voted to remain but the country voted by a majority to come out of the European Union so that is what we should do otherwise why hold the referendum in the first place.
silverxfox
17th Jul 2018
9
Thanks for voting!
We had our referendum we voted Leave just get on with it!!
shielward
17th Jul 2018
8
Thanks for voting!
We have had one referendum we now need to deal with the results of that referendum, not keep voting until the multi-nationals and remainers are happy with the vote.
LanceFogg
17th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
NorfolkBroad - well said.
I had meant to say that everyone had their own reasons for wanting to leave, some very sound, some not so sound, some very emotional, some very objective.
CoryhillS
17th Jul 2018
5
Thanks for voting!
There is NO need for a second referendum, the remainers, need to grow up and stop acting like spoilt children because things didn't go their way. Move on do your job or get out and let someone else who is more capable take over. Bring in JRM.
NorfolkBroad
17th Jul 2018
11
Thanks for voting!
Those wanting another Referendum are muddying the waters by saying that people voted Leave for all different reasons and some didn't know what they were voting for meant. The latter comment is either insulting to those who knew exactly why they voted to Leave or it's their own fault for not reading the very expensive leaflet that landed on every doormat throughout the land. But that is irrelevant. Every time I vote in a General Election and 'my Party' doesn't win I do not protest and call for another Election. The people in Scotland have been told that they cannot have another Referendum on Independence because they were told at the beginning that there would only be one Referendum and the result would be final. The same applies here. It doesn't matter if some people voted because they wanted to stop mass immigration whilst other voted because their relatives had fought in WW2 so we wouldn't be governed by someone else - or indeed some probably voted because they didn't like how the Common Market had evolved into the EU. We had a vote. Everyone over the age of 18 had the opportunity to vote. Those who voted 'Leave' won by a majority; the amount of the majority is as irrelevant in this vote as it is in an Election. What we do need to vote on is whether MP's who go against what the majority of the nation want should be allowed to remain as an MP,
PFV
17th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
As you say "people voted Leave for all different reasons".
Some voted leave to get the vast amounts for the NHS which Boris's bus promised, which the Chancellor has said doesn't exist. Some voted leave to stop immigration, but the total number coming into the country including those from outside the EU, which the Government could control now if it chose to, continues to rise. Some voted to return to Parliamentary democracy, but Mrs May seems determined to get government by government ministers and Whitehall mandarins.
Did anyone vote leave so that their job would be exported to the continent or the Far East, which the financial institutions are already doing, and the major multi-national manufacturing companies are now telling us will happen?
Will those who voted Leave and whose job is exported be happy to work in a Care Home or picking vegetables for the minimum wage to replace the EU workers who are no longer admitted?
When people voted Leave they did so because of a lot of different promises, most of which are now seen to be pie in the sky, and without knowing what terms would result from the negotiations with the EU.
When people know what voting leave will actually mean, then they should have a chance to vote for what they will get, rather than what they hoped for!
Wilf
17th Jul 2018
3
Thanks for voting!
I totally agree with you. I keep saying (like an old cracked record) The issue is not if we go or we stay but the Great British Public were never given ANY proper information about the ramifications of staying or leaving. They should have been with such a momentous decision!
NikkiB56
17th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
The Remain Campaign, together with the Government advised voters on the Armageddon that would occur if the electorate chose to Vote Leave. This included that we would have to leave both the Single Market & the Customs Union causing the loss of jobs and Financial Ruin. The Country still voted to Leave even after being given that information. Admittingly the Leave Campaign did embellish information and make it appear as though it was going to be very easy but you would have to be very stupid if you thought 40+ years of Membership could end easily. I am even more convinced now, that to Leave is the right decision.
NikkiB56
17th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
I disagree, the Electorate was given the information but definitely not in the best way. I was one of the undecided and did the research myself using the internet. The Leaflet produced by the Government gave all the essential information on what it would mean if the Country voted to Leave the EU membership.
Wilf
17th Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
I do not think the electorate was given any pertinent information. The leaflet was a joke and contained no real information. The government should have had a website up and got independent economists/trade specialists/lawyers to draft out the pros and cons of leaving. When another independent panel was satisfied with that HM Gov should have advertised it everywhere. A result either way that will affect Uk for generations really should have had a lot more preparation, even if the preparation took another year or two. the result? I do not think we would be in the mess we are now as HM gov could have said we laid out all the facts and you the electorate voted.
NikkiB56
17th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
I cannot disagree with your comment, but then nobody, not even Nigel Farage expected that Leave would be allowed to Win so no plan or preparations were ever done. Perhaps if people wanting to Remain had not been so complacent and more actually voted, they would not have lost.
Wilf
17th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
I agree with you but my point is surely any sensible government would have drafted out various scenarios and planned for different options. That they didn't is a reflection of the stupidity of humans. The problem with all this we all have a phd in hindsight (That includes me as well!)
Alicia
17th Jul 2018
15
Thanks for voting!
No just get out of the EU and done with as that is what we voted for. Let's go now !
LanceFogg
17th Jul 2018
11
Thanks for voting!
A number of points to correct -
a) in the small print of the Referendum Bill, the result would be "considered" by the government, it was not legally binding. However the government chose to implement the decision. It is now irrevocable because it has passed a Bill to leave the EU. That can only be amended or rescinded by passing another Bill.
b) KatePg - I think you are a victim of "false news" or predictive scaremongering. Job losses - employment is currently higher than it has ever been, falling £ - the £ has remained fairly stable over the past 2 years, medicines & cancer drugs at risk because they are sourced through EU agreements - absolute rubbish, crops rotting in the fields because there's no one to pick them - if there has been an exodus of East Europeans it hasn't been big enough to affect harvests, lack of resolution about the Irish border & Gibralter - not our fault, loss of ability to move across the EU without problems - so? no problems, we go back to the old system of visas, lack of certainty for British citizens living in the EU - absolutely not true. My sister has lived in Brussels for the past 40 years working in, of all places, the EU Commission. She has now retired and lives there in perfect confidence.

The reasons that the majority voted to leave in the first place is because the "Common Market" has changed. It has turned into a bureucratic monster. What started out as a tariff-free trading bloc has turned into the "United States of Europe". I voted to leave because it objected to being ruled by a load of unelected bureaucrats in another country. We do not need another level of very expensive bureaucracy!!
NorfolkBroad
17th Jul 2018
7
Thanks for voting!
What a wonderfully succinct comment. You have scythed through the 'false news' and 'scaremongers bible' with reality on your side.
ARG
17th Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
The country is being held to ridicule; stop this self-destructive madness NOW.

Many voters wanted (quite rightly) to show their opinion of the "ruling elite" whose policies had let them down so badly; policies most of which, incidentally, emanated from Westminster, not Brussels.

Unfortunately, their decision has delivered them wholesale into the very hands from which they were trying to escape.

Remember that the referendum itself was only called in an effort to preserve the cohesion of the Tory party in the face of losing votes to UKIP.

Unintended consequences writ large, Mr Cameron?
LorraineC3
17th Jul 2018
5
Thanks for voting!
No, and we should stop pussy footing around. Tell them this is how we are leaving and stick to it. Stopping free trade is harmful to everybody involved so that won't happen. We survived before we entered the EU and we will again. Get our industries back in production and let the farmers grow and sell whatever they want including wonky veg. I am fed up with all the negativity about what could happen when we leave. It is up to us to prove to the EU and everyone else that UK can be stronger than ever..Be POSITIVE people, but more than that be PROUD of this country and GET A GRIP.
PaulineM7
17th Jul 2018
9
Thanks for voting!
Would a second referendum be accepted any more than the first. Especially if it again meant Brexit. The 1st should stand and be properly implemented or we should just walk away.
NorfolkBroad
17th Jul 2018
4
Thanks for voting!
Totally agree Pauline. It would also open the floodgates for Scotland to insist on another Independence Referendum and all losing Party's in a General Election to want another go! Ludicrous. We all knew it was a once and once only vote and that Leave meant exactly that.
Wilf
17th Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
Walking away could mean economic catastrophe. I think we need some preparation first.
DianaH16
17th Jul 2018
3
Thanks for voting!
I think if it had been a quicker process folk would not be second guessing ....all the while it drags on it gives negative thoughts time to fester.. ...just get on with it!....we managed before we joined. I’m just fed up hearing about it to be honest .....
Pwilly
17th Jul 2018
4
Thanks for voting!
MeggieO
17th Jul 2018
9
Thanks for voting!
No , .absolutely not !
Why would a second vote be more valid than the first ?
We were told that whatever the decision , it would be implemented and that's what they should do ...democracy dictates that the majority gets the decision and that's exactly what's at stake here ( I did not vote for the government but I accept the majority did and we live with it for the full term ..)
The best way forward is to stop the foot stamping and name calling and unite to move forward and accept the challenge to make a successful future ..
LindaG781
17th Jul 2018
5
Thanks for voting!
We were told by Cameron the referendum on EU was legally binding and one off.we the majority voters voted to leave. Its democracy and those MPs who remainers should remember it is us who employ to do will of majority vote in Country. Unfortunately too many in top jobs remainers this should have been addressed from beginning.
KateP9
17th Jul 2018
-5
Thanks for voting!
We can now see what Brexit really means. Job losses, falling £, medicines & cancer drugs at risk because they are sources through EU agreements, crops rotting in the fields because there's no one to pick them, lack of resolution about the Irish border & Gibralter, loss of ability to move across the EU without problems, lack of certainty for British citizens living in the EU.

I could go on. It's madness!
LesleyA19
17th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
NorfolkBroad
17th Jul 2018
5
Thanks for voting!
I'm sorry to see that you have fallen for the scaremongering and false news. Employment has never been higher; I live in the country and can assure you that crops are not rotting in the fields - and surely if the Eastern Europeans go home then our own people on Job Seekers could take their place? As for the Irish Border, if the EU insist on it then let them put one up and face the consequences; although movement in and out of Switzerland (which isn't in the EU) is free flowing.
angharad
17th Jul 2018
9
Thanks for voting!
I voted 2 stay, that was then, the country decided 2 go, that is that, if people feel they made a mistake voting 2 go, well it's 2 late, u don't go back on a democratic vote, not if u want the world 2 take u serious
.
PeterS17
17th Jul 2018
10
Thanks for voting!
To have a second referendum would be a total waste of money and time., we've had our say now get on with it
lynnie2
17th Jul 2018
3
Thanks for voting!
Pipsqueak2kuk
17th Jul 2018
6
Thanks for voting!
If the Government had dealt with the issue properly in the first place, there would not be the mess and uncertainty that there is. Industry and major businesses are not being dealt with fairly.
kathynash
17th Jul 2018
5
Thanks for voting!
The Country voted to leave, the Government should honour this and get on with it
DianeB41
17th Jul 2018
5
Thanks for voting!
We must have control over our own laws
RichyRich
17th Jul 2018
7
Thanks for voting!
The vote was taken 18 months ago, and the vote was leave, it's up to the Goverment to honour the will of the people.
AlisonM8
17th Jul 2018
8
Thanks for voting!
Having another referendum is exactly what the EU want - after all that's exactly what happened in Ireland when the first one ( to replace the Punt with the Euro) didn't go the way they thought it should. As Theresa May said 'Leave means Leave' and not some strange half in half out deal which she seems to be promoting now. We need to get on with what the first referendum asked for and not waste time messing around with another one which could well come up with the same result so meaning that all the dealings up to now will have been a complete waste of time. Just get on with what we voted for as promised
123456dawn
17th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
I’m just fed up with it all never mind time will tell.
Aviation18
17th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
What would be the point. It would just drag on for another few years and get nowhere. It was a clear leave vote and that is how it should stay.
wendos
17th Jul 2018
7
Thanks for voting!
The country has voted to leave, so why do we need another referendum,
linj
16th Jul 2018
5
Thanks for voting!
No. Think we should get out, stay out and put an end to being dictated to by Brussels. The majority vote was to leave and the MPs should respect that.
Judith358
16th Jul 2018
-9
Thanks for voting!
The first referendum was badly flawed with lies and false information. It may be a different result with the knowledge of hindsight.
Wilf
17th Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
I totally agree. The information from the government was woeful and they should have set out both sides in a way that people understood.
[deleted]
17th Jul 2018
3
Thanks for voting!
LesleyA19
17th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
So true! Many of us had very little idea of what we were voting for or the consequences of our decision. I spent ages reading and listening to different arguments and camr to the conclusion it was well beyond my capability. People voted on simplistic, false promises.
Wilf
17th Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
But the problem is Jorid the government should have had an independent panel who put forward a list of why we should stay in and why we should leave. It should have been simple but comprehensive. It should have been on a website promoted everywhere and all the newspapers/TV etc should have had adverts about it. Then we could have voted on substance. As it was they sent through the post a piece of garbage that told us the square root of nothing! Also the government should have had contingencies lined up if we did leave. they didn't and its a dogs dinner!
Wilf
17th Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
I totally agree with you-no information of any substance was given by HM government apart from rubbish by both sides of the argument. Shambles comes to mind!
[deleted]
17th Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
Wilf
17th Jul 2018
0
Thanks for voting!
I agree Jorid that one rule does'nt fit all and to have a federal Europe just does not make sense. However I do not think our industry was being crippled-we have the 5th largest economy in the world. It could be that manufacturing has gone to the far East like many countries but not as far as I can see to the Eu. Also I am not sure why Human Rights in the Eu is a mockery-seems to me GB has some of the most robust Human Rights in the world!
ElainePeony
16th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
No worries people...we will have to endure another General Election ...MPs shipping out, perhaps they all got too hot and want to go on their 6 week holidays? Likewise that lot in Brussels...they need a rest too ...don't they?
New Term in September, new school uniforms and new opportunities being offered...
Including all the " larfs" Mr D Trump trumpets daily, what pleasure to enjoy his magnificent ego in charge of his importance! The joy of his ineptitude as a Politician and even less competence as a Diplomat is marvellous to witness...this makes the EU and GB as the Biscuite..yes, M.Garnier we know you want to dunk us in your cafe au lait..

Blessed Theresa,
End of school report
She voted to remain in the EU, now she is so confused, as we are. It would be helpful if she could abstain...and have a good rest with her feet above her head, and enjoy a cold flannel. We'll talk about it later, and then later, and after that....
Janice27
16th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
I think it would be a good idea to have another vote. Because then we could really query what has happened to the promises that the N HS would have so many thousands per week, as for all the shipbuilding and other workscoming back I don’t think so.
LanceFogg
16th Jul 2018
11
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The problem now is that if Parliament vote on the White Paper and amazingly approve it, it will go to the EU for ratification and, if ratified, it will effectively bind us in perpetuity to the ECJ and all sorts of EU regulations and will probably exclude us from making trade deals with other countries.
The terminology used in the White Paper is vague and open to interpretation and could mean we are, in effect, still tied to the EU. This is all designed to keep a small group of 12 MPs from Northern Ireland happy (the DUP members) so that there is no "hard border".
This is not our doing, this is down to the EU's attitudes and restrictive practices and it is they who should be finding a way around this problem, not us!
I want to see this White Paper thrown out. What takes its place? Some say chaos but it could signal the beginning of "no deal" which is what I predicted 2 years ago. The problem is that the EU don't want us to leave. They need our money!!!
What sort of organisation when faced with a drop in income of 15 % (our contributions) actually plans to enlarge itself and face funding a "European Defence Force"? An organisation that has no audited budget and no transparency in its finances. One that I certainly wouldn't join.
StuartM9
16th Jul 2018
6
Thanks for voting!
No, no, no. Do we keep having referendums till we get the result we want.
arnoldbradford
16th Jul 2018
3
Thanks for voting!
No we should not! get the prime minister and politicians stick to what the public voted for , a quick clean brexit. But with our weak and sick in the head prime minister who knows what will happen, she is only looking after her own sort. This country is going down the pan.
LanceFogg
16th Jul 2018
6
Thanks for voting!
Absolutely NO.
The British public were asked a question and gave their reply. I am furious at the repeated attempts to derail the process of quitting the EU. The over-riding concern I have now is that the White Paper is not one which has been produced by the DEEU but by a Cabinet sub-committee and hence the recommendation has not come from those entrusted to negotiate but a small group with vested interests who have played no part in previous negotiations.
The entire process has been one of supplication and subservience to the EU bureaucracy. There has been very little negotiation but simply a list of demands by the EU side and a lack of knowledge and experience by the UK side in how to conduct negotiations.
ARG
24th May 2019
0
Thanks for voting!
"Vested interests" ! The same interests that want a deregulated economy, reduced worker's rights, a privatised NHS, reduced food and environmental standards and a return to the pre-welfare state days. Why? So that they can line their pockets and expand their investments stashed in tax havens (which the EU, incidentally, is trying to legislate against) The same people in fact that the original referendum was sold as "giving a kicking to"
All that brexit will achieve (particularly a hard version) is to put us all at the mercy of such people. Oh and I expect that Mr. Farage will make a bob or two along the line as well.
Yagala
16th Jul 2018
7
Thanks for voting!
definitely not, the poll for Brexit was fair and square and the losers are trying to get their way, why should they? in any poll there are winners and losers and there forever will be another poll and another poll. Sick to my back teeth am I about these losers, you lost, take your loss as an adult and not as alittle child.
ARG
24th May 2019
0
Thanks for voting!
This little child is a grandfather, and I have more respect for my grandchildren's future than to let this national act of self-harm pass without challenge.
Tubby
16th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
It seems that we have given into so many things already we may as well stay in the EU and all this hype by the now defunct Forign Secretary Boris Jonson about all these millions that were going back into our NHS is probably not going to happen, all we want is someone to be strait with us but that won't happen.
Wilf
16th Jul 2018
4
Thanks for voting!
I totally agree all we want is a website with all the arguments for and against in it. Surely HM Government could get that sorted? That is what has been needed all along. The average BRit has not got a clue. Mrs May keeps chirping "Brexit means Brexit" yes ok but what on earth does Brexit mean? Thats the bit she leaves out. Nobody has got a clue especially her. (By the way I voted to stay in and now I have not got a clue what would be best!)
Wilf
16th Jul 2018
-2
Thanks for voting!
It does make you think. At least with the EU we know whats going on with Brexit or a lukewarm Brexit (a la Mrs May) we have not got a clue. Do I want to have an economic meltdown for my kids? We need another vote and this time we need to understand what on earth we are voting for !...Not "we will get £350 million a week more into the NHS". It was Camerons fault his government should have laid all the facts out and they should have been sense-checked and agreed by the opposition and Civil service BEFORE the vote.
[deleted]
16th Jul 2018
6
Thanks for voting!
djl277
16th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
Whit? Perhaps you could explain how Scots live in a Dictatorship?
[deleted]
16th Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
djl277
16th Jul 2018
2
Thanks for voting!
The SNP was elected to Holyrood using a voting system that is way more democratic, fairer and more in-tune with the wishes of the electorate than the UK's FPP system and as someone who "believes in democracy" then you'll respect the will of the Scottish people, won't you. In Scotland we vote for a party - not the leader. It may be that you personally do not like the First Minister but many in Scotland (and beyond) would concede that she and her party have achieved much under difficult circumstances. So much so that recent polls suggest that support for the SNP is in fact growing despite a dip in the FM personal popularity.

The SNP MPs (I make the distinction because the FM has no vote in Westminster) voted against Sunday Trading Laws as the changes would not only directly affect England and Wales, but would indirectly affect Scotland : if the laws are liberalised south of the border, then the overtime wages that Scottish workers enjoy for working on a Sunday would be jeopardised. The SNP were safeguarding and doing the best for the constituents who elected them - do you expect them to do anything less. Do you not expect your MP to work for you and your area?

You will, of course, have the evidence or source to back your claim that the FM is expecting, or giving the impression, that anything will be "free of charge" once Scotland is independent. Or is that just you saying this? Mind you, if you want to start talking charges then not 50 miles from me there is the abomination that is Trident - I think the SG could lease Faslane to Westminster for an exorbitant sum whilst they scrabble around looking for somewhere to put the missiles and submarines and that would more than cover any cost you might think should be levied.
kentrix39
16th Jul 2018
4
Thanks for voting!
If one side does not like the outcome of an election we do not have another to try to bring about the what the losers wanted. The people have spoken lets get someone who will get us away from these blood suckers in Europe we are talking too long over this . If the unelected creatures in Europe do not like what we want sod them, tell them to push off in no uncertain terms.
Margaret Hart
16th Jul 2018
8
Thanks for voting!
There is no democracy in that action - we voted, they got the result which they at the top,didn’t want and had prepared nothing towards it. David Cameron being a weak man couldn’t take what the people wanted so,he took his bat and ball home and left the Conservative party in a mess and even the choosing of a new leader was a farce as they stabbed each other in tthe back. Don’t blame Theresa she tried to take it on with virtually no support from any MPs. We voted out and it appears that we are not going to get that as Europe want to make things difficult as they usually do when they want their own way. The only way to go,ahead is to,say we are going and that they can like it or lump it and they might then come to their senses.
Bald123
16th Jul 2018
-5
Thanks for voting!
Yes yes and yes. The whole country is in a right pickle and unless we have another vote we just will not sort this thing out. We need to agree are we staying or going BUT! and it is a BIG BUT this time people will have a lot more information about what they are voting on as last time was a total fiasco.
Wilf
16th Jul 2018
-1
Thanks for voting!
I agree we need to have another vote and this time understand what on earth we are voting for!-We want details not fluff!
[deleted]
16th Jul 2018
7
Thanks for voting!
Wilf
16th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
I agree with governing ourselves, reducing immigration as we are a small island but to be honest I doubt if the average Brit will see any difference at all-a lot of it is perception. My point is the government is at fault as had no information about what exactly staying in verses leaving would entail for our laws oru economy etc etc. They would argue they cannot guarantee anything. My point is fine but at least give us some pointers. All we got was a joke of a leaflet posted through the door which was as much use as a chocolate fireguard!. It was all the rubbish being posted by both sides which annoyed me. We elect the government to run the country . Its like we are shareholders in a company. If the board want to make a big decision we need to understand and vote on it but having all pertinent points in front of us.
sixtyplusvat
16th Jul 2018
9
Thanks for voting!
No, no and no!!! We voted to leave and leave we should a.s.a.p.! Those who don't like it have had more than their say and I firmly believe Mrs. May should get on with the job in hand and get us out of this glorified and expensive soap opera. The only ones who don't like the idea are those who have a finger or two already in the pie!!
Bald123
16th Jul 2018
-8
Thanks for voting!
I do think we need to vote again sixtyplusvat just to settle this once and for all and hopefully it will be a large majority either way rather than a 52/48 majority
[deleted]
16th Jul 2018
6
Thanks for voting!
Bald123
16th Jul 2018
1
Thanks for voting!
Agreed they do export more to us than vv but its 27 countries against us and we do need a civilised split. Its all very well saying we will just walk away but the UK will go into economic meltdown if that happens as we will not be able to import goods, export them or sail or ships into their ports or fly our aircraft into or over the EU.
sixtyplusvat
16th Jul 2018
6
Thanks for voting!
For those of us who are 'gold enough' to remember, we managed very well before the EU and their CAP which resulted in mountains of butter and lakes of milk!! Now farmers are paid to leave their land empty to keep the prices high! Euro MP's are paid a fortune just to sit on their brains (if they have any). The Euro is in meltdown and Greece and Italy want to leave......soon others will follow!

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