Do you think we’re facing chaos now we’re leaving the EU?
After months of debate, scaremongering, polls and confusion the decision has been made for the United Kingdom to leave the European Union.
An estimated 46,499,537 people were entitled to take part in the vote and around 72% turned out – a record number for a UK poll, and it was dubbed the biggest decision the country have taken for a generation.
It was only the third nationwide referendum in UK history and comes after a four-month battle for votes between the Leave and Remain campaigns.
This topic has been top of the agenda since 20th February when David Cameron announced a referendum and now our choice has been made.
So how do you feel? Is the outcome what you wanted? Do you think we’re facing chaos now we’re leaving the EU? Are you happy with the result? Do you feel relieved it is over? Do you think David Cameron was right to call the Referendum in the first place?
UPDATE AT 08:15 BST:
How do you feel now that David Cameron has resigned as Prime Minister?
What are your views?
We'd love to hear your comments
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Asked what the EU would do as our contribution will be less than expected due to the fall in the pound he said it will have to be managed somehow, when pressed further by the interviewer he said it is unfair for the other 27 countries to have to pay more because of our decision to leave the EU which triggered the fall. He said they wouldn't be very happy as it had resulted in 2 billion shortfall which was our fault.
Then stated that perhaps the UK should make up the shortfall.
The interviewer said, but the other year when our economy was doing really well we had to pay an additional 1.9 billion to the EU. To which he replied this is only fair!
I am sure he was making mischief as he was saying these things with a twinkle in his eye, but confirms to me the EU think they have a never ending supply of money all the time we are a member.
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The ruling made in the High Court was a legal opinion, not a political decision. And yet the red top newspapers are not applauding this demonstration of Sovereignty. They are in fact headlining quite the reverse. The Daily Mail, The Express, and The Sun are choosing to mislead their readers by claiming the ruling was political.
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It seems that the red top newspapers have no hesitation in being hypocritical, no hesitation in spreading lies, untruths and anxiety to sell newspapers.
There will be no problems obtaining good trading arrangements with Europe as we are one of their big customers. They need us as much as we need them.
We will be a sovereign nation once again and will not be subjected to laws and petty regulations imposed on this independent country.
We have everything good to look forward to.
Inevitably there will be disturbance to the economy as we go through the change period of uncertainty but it will be worth it.
The EU beginnings:
Together , they planned to control Europe taking a different route, Brussels EU.
An IG Farben letter specifies a common European currency, common European law, and even a European court system – all of that under the control of the Nazi/IG Farben coalition.
Hans Globke had been co-author of the Nuremberg racial laws and had also been responsible for writing the new laws of the Greater European “Reich” in the countries occupied by the Nazis during World War II.
The records of the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal document that Bayer, BASF and Hoechst gave more than 80 million Reichsmark to the Nazis and their sub-organizations. In return for this “investment” IG Farben ( made Zyclon B for the extermination of the Jews ) took over the chemical, pharmaceutical and petrochemical industries in the countries occupied during WWII with the ultimate goal to create and dominate a “European Market” form Lisbon to Sofia.
Walter Hallstein (17 November 1901 – 29 March 1982) was a German academic, diplomat, and politician. He was the first president of the Commission of the European Economic Community and one of the founding fathers of the European Union.
From the beginning, one of the main financiers of the “Brussels EU” was the West German Government. On April 24, 1964, the key architects of the “Brussels EU” – all of them active members of the IG Farben/Nazi coalition during WWII – met at the “Brussels EU” headquarters to stake their claims on the future of the European continent. Apparently they were so sure about their success to take control over Europe in their 3rd attempt, via the “Brussels EU”.
EU Commission President Walter Hallstein – the Architect of the “Brussels EU”
German Chancellor Ludwig Erhard
Ludger Westrick, Head of the German Chancellery
Karl Carstens, German Secretary of State for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs
Karl-Günther von Hase, Head of the Press and Information Service of the German government
Brexit means Brexit.
As the war came to an end the world’s politicians were discussing a future where a war on this scale would never happen again. Amongst those politicians was Winston Churchill. Churchill was openly expressing an opinion that the only way to prevent another war in Europe and to eliminate the European ills of nationalism and war-mongering was the creation of an open border United States of Europe. It is on record, that in a speech in Zurich in 1946, he publically stated that opinion.
70 years later we seem to be entering a period when closed borders, concrete walls, barbed wire fences and the prevention of freedom of movement are being planned as the way forward for society. The plans for walls, borders and the prevention of freedom of movement are being driven by the rise in separatism, which at its core wants to separate certain groups of people on the basis of ethnicity, religion or gender.
Common sense tells me that that the best way to minimize the likelihood of war is to remove land borders and trade borders. The removal of borders helps do away with inequalities, reduces unemployment and most importantly reduces the risk of land wars and trade wars which history tells us inevitably lead to military wars.
A more immediate reality. The collapse of sterling has been good for exporters but it is causing a problem in the in the NHS, Agriculture, Construction and service industries. Employees who are not UK citizens and working here legally have seen their savings reduce in value by 20% and it is costing them 20% more to send money back to their country of birth.
In these sectors, employers are experiencing a high rate of resignations from employees who are not UK citizens. Anecdotal evidence is that they are returning home or taking jobs in Holland and Germany etc. To make matters worse the number of job applications from people who are not UK citizens has fallen to an all-time low.
It would be ironic if the “Leave Campaign” call for a massive reduction in immigration into the UK was achieved by simply collapsing the value of Sterling. And of course, with that reduction in immigration the NHS, Agriculture, Construction and all the service industries would go into meltdown and with it the whole of our economy.
What is it that they say, oh yes “Be careful what you wish for”
17,410,742 voted to leave (48.1%)
16,141,241 voted to stay (51.9%)
Even if you spilt the non-voters equally between leave and remain you still have a situation where just over 48% of the population do not want the changes that leaving the EU will bring to all of us.
Ignoring what 48% of the population wants for our society is going to give any government a lot of problems.
Yesterday I watched Parliamentary Question Time on TV and listened to the political news on the radio. Early this morning I spent a short time browsing today's newspapers.
A few moments ago I opened an old Collins Dictionary and looked for the definition of chaos. It said; complete disorder; utter confusion.
The question being asked in this forum is as follows.
Do you think we’re facing chaos now we’re leaving the EU?
I think we can all agree that the UK is now in a state of chaos following the vote on 23rd June 2016
I am watching and waiting to see which direction this world chaos,Political chaos and the chaos which will be caused by the imminent collapse of Deutsche Bank will take. Like dominoes..... crash!
Of course Brexit will be blamed.
I wait with bated breath to see what new laws and restrictions will emerge from this. Maybe it is a cunning plan to break down the old order, and bring in A New Order that Politicians world wide are fixated on?. Or is it all just the folly of feckless leaders.
How is quite another question.
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I think the world is now waiting on the outcome of elections in the USA. If Trump is successful then confidence in the dollar will collapse and the economy of China and the Western World will be in real trouble.
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The UK represents less than 1% of the world population. In practice, our machinations regarding Brexit mean very little to the rest of the world.
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The folly of feckless leaders. You are probably correct.
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What we did get is a new PM leading government with a small majority that is split between remain in the EU and leave the EU.
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Democracy in the UK is a long established process where UK citizens vote to have their opinions and values represented by a member of parliament. The UK does not have a history or process where decisions are made by referendum.
The 23rd of June 2016 was a “first past the post” preference vote by individual members of society. It has not been passed into law by parliament.
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However, the current government has decided to try and put in place the vague fantasies that the leave campaigners put forward. The problem now is that the civil service does not have the systems to put these vague fantasies into place. So getting on with anything is just not possible.
It remains to be seen just how synergy-oriented European leaders will be in months ahead. Edward Lorenz’s work with chaos theory and “sensitive dependence on initial conditions” is often referred to as the “Butterfly Effect” based on his question, “If a butterfly flaps its wings in Brazil will it create a tornado in Texas?”
Britain has now flapped its wings.
“Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…”
(Winston Churchill House of Commons, 11 November 1947)
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We heard promises and commitments at the Labour Party conference. The promise of jobs for the post-industrial areas of the UK is totally unrealistic. Industries that create mass employment have gone to the low-cost areas of the world and will not be coming back. Talk of commitment to massive investment in infrastructure cannot be backed up with details of where the money will come from. It was admitted by a Labour party spokesman that they have not talked any lenders in Europe or anywhere else in the world.
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We are starting to hear promises and commitments at the Conservative Party conference. Yesterday it was a promise that the 27 EU countries will give us a better trade deal than they have between themselves. No explanation of why 455 million people in the trading club of 27 countries would give the one country of 65 million that now wants to leave the trading club a better deal than they have between themselves. A team of 27 against a team of 1; just ask yourselves who is the favourite to come out as the winner.
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Multiply that by the other 27 countries also withdrawing from EU membership and it looks like an admin and social nightmare.
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Or maybe not, it might be that an implosion of the kind you visualise would resolve the European unemployment problem. It would create millions and millions of new civil servant jobs all over the Europe. Initially to negotiate the withdrawal from the EU and then to negotiate trade deals with all the other 27 countries and the rest of the world.
I believe that eventually the wealthy northern countries will 'relegate' the less wealthy south, thus making a two tier EU.
Before this happens Germany will probably re-instate the DM for international trade only, which will lead to the demise of the EU.
millions into the kitty to pay Turkey to take in immigrants from Greece
which was overloaded. Cameron and Osborne even lent 1 million Euros to the EU Bank !!!
It will need a very knowledgeable Team to negotiate with the EU , Merkel andJuncker will not want to lose their top contributor to the EU.
I sincerely hope Britain Leaves ....in factI wouldn't be surprised to see the EU fall apart .
IInitially Merkel took in so many to help with the labour needed in
Germany, that is not the case any more. Several Members of the EU have not made any plans to take in migrants or donate to the kitty.
Merkel and Juncker will not make it easy for Britain to leave and May will need to have a very strong negotiating team, plus no interference from big Business , you are right the small Countries
are finding it hard to cope .....is there any Country that has a healthybank balance???
The farming community will not receive the subsidies they need to keep going.
The man in the street will need bigger pockets to pay for increased prices for everything to do with every days .
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Incredibly the decision by 26.9 % of the population to vote “leave” was not based on information about what would happen to the UK if we left the EU. This was simply because the Leave party did not have any information to give us.
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The leaders of the Leave party knew full well that voting “leave” would trigger a change in the constitution and a vote to leave the EU would present a fundamental risk to the financial future of the UK. But the leaders of the Leave party had not given a moment's thought to how leaving the EU would be managed.
They had not given any thought to who would carry out this work or what the consequences would be if we voted to leave the EU.
I think we can describe this lack of thought and planning by the Leave party as negligent and totally irresponsible.
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At the end of the Second World War, the UK was destitute and remained that way until we joined what is now called the EU. Since joining the EU the United Kingdom has become the 2nd wealthiest country in EU membership and the 5th wealthiest country in the world. This wealth has created political stability, social stability in a society where 13 % of the population was born overseas, health care for the whole nation, education for the whole country and a standard of living that up until now has been the envy of most of the rest of the world.
Much of this wealth has come from our long-term trading relationships with the EU, Japan, the USA and others. In the past week, all three said much the same thing “we respect your vote on 23rd June but do not expect to have the same agreement when it comes to renegotiation”
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We all know that the UK is far from perfect. We all know that we need to keep trying to make it better, but compared with the rest of the world, the UK had it just about right. But for 26.9 % of the population, this was not enough and they voted to risk most of what the UK had worked so hard to achieve in the last 50 years and they have asked the government to start all over again.
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So in starting all over again we should consider what has happened so far.
“Brexit means Brexit” is meaningless. We might as well say “Walking means Walking” or “Gardening means Gardening”.
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The G20 meeting produced some negative statements from our soon to be ex-business partners.
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The PM announced that points-based immigration system that the Leave party and Farage had based so much of their baseless and fatuous argument upon was not going to be used.
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David Davis the Brexit Minister stood at the dispatch box and said absolutely nothing. Later in the day, he had his knuckles rapped by the PM for going off message about our future relationship with the EU.
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Australia made it very very clear they will not negotiate with the UK until we leave the EU.
The comments made in this debate more often than relate to how our economy will be affected. While this is important (and incidentally trade is now looking up) what is more important in my view is the British way of life. We are an island nation (close to Europe but not really of it or its values) and that has always been our strength. We have the strength, expertise, and hopefully the will to succeed.
rebate from the EU. No mention of the NHS which needs a good overhaul and investment , otherwise we will lose all the dedicated Doctors and Nurses to Private Companies.
second we can control our boarders which we could not do before, we managed before we joined the E U the people that wanted us to stay in is our M Ps
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Sterling against the Euro and the Dollar.
The collapse in value of sterling against the Euro and the Dollar has lead to a bonanza for the investment industry based outside of the sterling area. They are doing two things:
1. Buying UK businesses at a massive discount. ARM Holdings are a very good example of a UK company being bought at a discount.
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2. Buying shares at a massive discount to true value. Then as the sterling recovers they will sell the shares, take the profit, and move it out of UK jurisdiction.
You will not have to wait 5 years.
David Cameron may well have felt that he was defeated and so should resign, however I would argue that as the new PM, Teresa May has a moral, constitutional and parliamentary duty to vigorously pursue due process to the letter.
The debate must continue and the opinion garnered from the referendum taken into consideration in the context of the political and socio-economic issues. It is becoming increasingly clear, almost a month on, that the effect of a Brexit is and will continue to have an enormously negative impact on the future of this country. Given the reaction of the rest of the EU partners, including the call from some, in light our referendum, for widespread reform of the EU organisation. It would surely be more responsible to consider being part of that objective than to simply leave.
I agree there are huge issues in terms of EU bureaucracy and their obscenely flagrant profligacy; this runaway gravy-train needs to be derailed in favour of transparency, accountability and efficiency.
In a world where corruption, greed,terror and hatred are causing our fragile planet to implode, we have the opportunity to be part of a coalition of nations which stand for something altogether more worthy, an altruism that is a beacon of cooperation and inclusion, an example of all that is true, honest, good and safe, a means of paying it forward and creating a sustainable future for our children & grandchildren. I have two children whom I have brought up to be inclusive, open minded, unbiased, fair and thoughtful in every aspect of life. I have brought them up with the notion that they have rights and options to live, work and study anywhere in Europe. At 16 & 17 (18 in a month), when they are just starting out in their adult lives all those options are suddenly being withdrawn and they have no voice to effect change for themselves and given that this is a one off choice, no option to revisit this decision in the future . They are European by birthright, they have the right to choose.
I’m a Scottish Spaniard living in England, I am European. I have the right to choose and I believe we are better together.
Now we have to trust that those who have been handed the reigns of political power, will get on with the job of dealing with a new and exciting Britain.
All the childish whining, backstabbing, sulking and scaremongering in the world will not change the fact that we will dust ourselves off and forge ahead.
Hundreds of thousands of men and women died for this country and all of us who are here today so that we might live without being bullied into submission when the going gets tough. Let us stand behind those who have been given the task of leading us forward to a "better Britain".
“Let us unite and be prosperous”
Andrea, that is what we have at the moment, we are prosperous and united with 500 million people in the EU.
“We want tariff-free trade agreements with the EU”
Andrea, we already have that. Because of you, we are now having to renegotiate this for the future well-being of the UK.
“We can be the greatest nation on earth”
Andrea that was a belief in the 18th century when Britain ruled the waves and we had an Empire.
That time has passed and the world has moved on. We are already a major influence in the world but with 0.88% of the world population, these words are just an empty promise.
Boris would describe Andreas words as “piffle”
Let's, for a moment, look at your post. You reference five hundred million. It was three hundred and forty seven million people when we joined. We turned our backs on a Commonwealth of two billion plus people who wanted our goods and services, and could pay for them, for a measly three hundred odd million who had no need of us or our output. I'm not the business man,but you are. Which market would you choose?
You think we are united and prosperous within Europe? Get the shades off man, we remain the poor relation. Tell me otherwise, but I need some facts.
Roof top, a man much wiser than you or I, but of my blood, said, what comes around goes around. Solomon, a great wise man. We were great and we will be great again, in terms, but never in the EU!
Roof Top, this is the start of something great. We both may have enough life left to see it. But will you admit, sorry chaps, I got it wrong? Come on here and eat humble pie? I think you will have that courage, but only because I've come to respect you.
Don't disappoint me, now!
The question was " Do you think we’re facing chaos now we’re leaving the EU"
The signs of this chaos are already there. In politics we have no leader, business has stopped investing, in the city, there are massive winners and losers, these are all very clear signs of instability and chaos.
You just have to look at the political commentators on the TV channels and in the press. They are all telling us we are living in extraordinary and uncertain times.
We are already in chaos.
Solomon, a man who presided over extraordinary and uncertain times wrote: there is a time to tear down and a time to upbuild.
I could easily believe this time is the former.
Yes, I agree, all revolutions are shambles it's of their very nature.
My fear for a very long time, is that this revolution will quickly devolve to the streets. I think people feel they have been suppressed, ignored or overidden for so long they will take the opportunity to revolt. It's happened in other countries with disastrous. Once started it probably would be unstoppable, well, at least until the anger and venom has been vented.
If we must have change to our very roots, let's do it the Czech way, the Velvet Revolution. Not a drop of blood was shed.
I was in that country short after the Velvet Revolution, just after Vaclav Havel had been installed as President. Not at all like Hungary in 1956 or Prague in 1968.
Best of all would be no revolution but as one voice I doubt there's much I could do about it.
R.T.C. When we entered EU none of the above was mentioned.
Actually, last night i watched 'Paxman in Brussels' on Utube now, that is really, really, scary, maybe some younger people should watch it.
People wanted out because the EU leaders are unelected undemocratic control freaks, who want and are creating a Russian style Politburo behind our back!
Its domination via the back door!Read up on it,its all out there.
Also remember Merkel herself saying Multiculturalism does not work!!that is rich coming from her and its too little too late!
Being ex R.A.F. I would just like to comment that had it not been for the help from Polish pilots who were able to show certain tactics in defeating the luftwaffe, we would not be having an in or out vote to-day !!
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Now that it's over. The Remain voters seem to be mainly young people. What makes me sad, these young people appear to very, very scared that they might have to stand on their own 2 feet and would rather hand over the responsibility for their lives to EU.
I may not be here when it all settles down, but glad i voted out.
48% of the country voted to stay in the EU. Logically that includes old and young alike. It is not a question of being scared. The reality is simple, by voting to leave we have inflicted a huge amount of damage on our current economy and the economy of the future generations.
It will be for the younger generations to try and put the UK back together again. I can see from your post that you were prepared to be part of the vote that caused such damage but you are not choosing to help the recovery.
We have several trolls trolling along I see!
I also see an increase in homelessness. I fear our government is not committed to increasing social housing and care of the most vulnerable in our society, or even of people who are not vulnerable, but not rich enough to have access to further education, child care, care for the elderly, disabled, or use public transport.
The other worry I have is the loss of funding for science and education projects. I fear we might be becoming more intolerant and closed.
So, yes, I fear more chaos, and Britain becoming less the beautiful, green, open friendly land I found when I came here more than 40 years ago.
Lagarto, let's get away from Tony Blair's corruption of the English language and the politically correct path he put in place alongside that. I hope we've all grown up after the disastrous Blair years.
Xenophobia means a 'fear,' of foreigners or things alien to our culture or norms. If you mean a growing 'fear,' of foreigners is arising in the UK, you're probably correct. But let's be precise here. It is a fear, in some parts of the UK, of what non UK nationals are doing, or have done to our country. And that with the blessing of our elected governments! Houses, jobs, school places and even ethnic shops preclude our own people. This very day we had a delivery from Amazon by a driver who had no English! Doesn't that tell you something is out of balance here?So many areas of East Anglia are now 'no-go areas.' I know, I live here.
Now let's deal with your other allegation - racism. Again, this is a Blairite corruption of the English language, one which served his purposes very well. And, it seems, still does!
The English people traditionally have been accepting of migrants from other nations. I am from migrant stock. Polish; we came over almost two hundred years ago. But we changed our ways and integrated into English ways; changed our name, move our religion a step forward to Christianity and built lives here. In fact, I've been married for almost eighteen years to another of the same background, and that without knowing it before we married!
Generally, Post War migrants have not integrated with the English, no, they live their lives and we ours. Separately. This is not the way forward for any nation, because it ceases to be a nation. It then becomes a people divided against themselves. That is a recipe for disaster, which I think it what we are facing. Even I, as a fairly liberal, fairly moderate man, a man concerned more with peace than conflict, sees ahead. So sadly, I see it an unavoidable.
Please allow me to tell you, I am not a nationalist, neither do I belong to any political movement, nor have sympathies with any of them. I am an individual who has lived in several parts of the UK and outside it.
Migration of any sort on the scale we have today, well, it doesn't work out. It will result in major problems. Migration on a smaller scale will work out, with the good will of the English people which is always in place.
I do not fear xenophobia or racism, well, in the terms as you use them, because they're just meaningless Blairite words, words without meaning in real life. But I do fear this newly liberated nation's response to mass migration. I will not be a part of that response, nor do I condone it. Indeed, elsewhere in the British press I have written extensively against a violent response. But just maybe, I can understand it. And just maybe I may empathise, if not enter into it.
Yes, this nation is in turmoil, upheaval. I don't like that fact, I can't condone it, am not part of it, but, having travelled the UK extensively I do have some sympathy.
If you know anything of English history you will know the English people, from time to time, rise up against their kings/governments or parliaments. Each time the result has been a change of direction for the state, and the people.
Now is just such a time.
Do your homework and research instead of believing all you read in papers and hear on the news.
Also you need to get out more.
The clue lies in their lack of knowledge and the fact they believe all they hear and see.
I bet not one of them reads other countrys daily newspapers!
An MP was on the TV last night and he very blithely said that because the FTSE 100 was recovering it proved that voting leave would not damage the UK economy or affect our cost of living. He did not mention the FTSE 250
It was the classic smoke and mirrors statement.
The FTSE 100 is heavily geared towards the worldwide economy of oil, mining, banking, energy and so on. The UK is, in reality, a small part of the world economy. ( NB. This should not be confused with the wealth of the UK) The FTSE 100 plays a very small part in our day to day cost of living.
The FTSE 250 is different. It is far more domestically geared. It comprises of many household names we all know and there are very few oil, banking and energy businesses listed. The performance of the FTSE 250 businesses plays a very big part in our day to day cost of living.
In the past week, the FTSE 250 has performed very badly when compared against similar world indices. The forecasters are all agreed that voting to leave the EU will have a negative effect on the FTSE 250.
As I have said above the FTSE 250 reflects how we live and the cost of living for all of us.
The inevitability of voting to leave is that the majority of FTSE 250 businesses will continue to perform badly and this will increase our cost of living.
I'm really not sure in isolation how your post about the FTSE indices is relevant to the huge raft of issue the EU has created over 43 years.
It is our credit based economy, that cradle to grave love in with debt.
We have an enormous trade imbalance with Europe, truly huge. This vote actually gives us the chance to rebalance that trade deficit by trading with other countries around the world.
If you thought that continuing in the EU as a lone voice with an ever widening trade gap was the answer,it wasn't.
We also might have some chance to reduce our love affair with credit and our house price based economy so driven by foreign buyers.
I see New Zealand has offered us their top trade negotiators for the forthcoming EU trade talks.
If I have to make some belt tightening measures for the long term benefit of my country then I will and would expect any patriot to do likewise.
I was writing about the very simple fact that what we all want is a stable economy with low inflation and low unemployment.
To have that kind economy you need the businesses that make up ordinary everyday life to be successful and stable. If those businesses are successful and stable they employ thousands of people and pay lots of tax to the treasury
I am not going to list all the names on the FTSE 250 but here is a sample of eight businesses we all know. Dairy Crest, Britvic, W H Smith, Debenhams, Halfords, Ocado, Saga, Tate and Lyle. As long as businesses like this do well then the country does well.
Your statement about our trade balance is flawed. The UK will never be able to rebalance our economy by trading overseas. We do not have that trading capacity or resource in the UK. The way we have been balancing our trade deficit has been by accepting foreign investment into the UK.
I say was, because in the days leading up to the referendum international money started to leave the UK. With the Brexit decision, last Thursday, the level of money leaving the UK has increased.
I wish you well with your belt-tightening measures. Belt tightening is a luxury the vast majority of society does not want and cannot afford.
For the millions who are living hand to mouth, the last thing they want is to be given some vague theory about belt tightening and patriotism.
You are clearly a very astute and aware man; a man to be admired, perhaps. But it seems you are also naive. I understand why you treasure cold and hard facts and figures but ...
Would you please tell me ... where in the history of this nation, this people, has advancement been accomplished without some pain, some suffering or deprivation? This night, I can't think of one.
We have been without a German yoke around our necks for seventy years. Got to agree on that, surely? But that came at the price of death, suffering and much humiliation.
My question is, why are you, we, so unwilling to suffer a little (far less than our parents) in order to right a monstrous wrong perpetrated on the British people by Edward Heath? Or, if you prefer, what is so special about this generation of youngsters that they are so deep afraid of being just discomfited, let alone having to suffer in a small way?
You see, Roof Top, in the great scheme of things, you and I count for nothing. Now that's a sobering thought, isn't it?
As always you chose to open your post with a point of view written to ensure I respond.
I do not treasure facts and figures but there is no other way of measuring or gauging society. Facts and figures can be used be used to support a lie and they can be used, to tell the truth.
The lie.
We have recently seen how the distortion of facts and figures can be used to manipulate society. The leave campaign made the claim or should I say told an absolute lie, that £350 million a week will be paid to the NHS if society votes to leave the EU.
The truth.
This week we have been given figures by the Bank of England describing what the effect of voting leave had had on the UK economy. Mark Carney said:
Initially, traders and investors saw heavy falls, but then there was a recovery with the FTSE 100 moving back above where it had closed last Thursday. The FTSE 250 index - which contains more UK-focused companies - still remains clearly lower than its pre-referendum level.
There are times in the history of the United Kingdom where the action of other nations has brought poverty and suffering to our nation. The list is long and on this particular day, it is quite poignant that we should be having this conversation.
This time, it is different. I cannot think of a time in history where the UK has chosen to vote for a slow process of long term self-harm.
Your statement about Germany has the feel of xenophobia and I have not seen that in your views before.
Germany is a description of the land within prescribed borders. German people live within those borders. In my lifetime German people have absorbed the collapse of the USSR by accommodating East Germany into its society. In my lifetime German people have been at the forefront in absorbing millions of dispossessed refugees.
On this last point, and to our eternal shame, the UK has done very little to help resolve this crisis and please do not remind me of the 10,000 tents we sent to Turkey and the 20 people we resettled into the Outer Hebrides.
It is a fact that you and I as members of the middle classes have the luxury of knowing that our life will not be changed by this decision to leave the EU. We both of us have enough time in our everyday lives to be able to sit at our keyboards and not have the pressure of work and survival hovering over our heads.
I do not understand what you mean by needing to suffer. There is no nobility or righteousness in suffering, it brings sadness and misery to adults and children alike.
Not sure what you mean by this generation of youngsters. From the comfort of my home I see them working in charities in the poorest parts of the world. I see them working in care homes and in nursing. I see them joining the armed forces and risking and losing their lives overseas. I see them starting businesses and representing the UK as world leaders in the IT industries.
I agree with your last sentence, dust to dust etc.
The world you are talking about is largely a fantasy because it doesn't take into account the differences of other countries to our own, look back at our history with Europe and the rest of the world we are not popular with most.
The vote was for leave so lets get on with it, the main problem for all of us is the Middle East and its spread of extremism.
The movie 'Eye in the Sky' you recommended to me I watched it last night ,enjoyed it !
Well, almost!
I apologise for not replying earlier. My wife has MS and her care comes before all other matters. No, I declined state benefits for my role in her life - it's a matter of devotion to a greatly loved one.
Now to the matter in hand. The time lapse plays into my hand. I've read this evening six powerful trading nations, including the USA want a trade deal with the UK. We've never have a trade deal with any of them except Australia. Now they are queuing up.
In spite of Obama saying we will be at the back of the queue they are now heading the queue!
I looked up CIA World Fact Book, just these nations amount to almost two billion people. Four times the population of the EU. That's some market - get in there Roof Top!
Now, let's deal with your charge of xenophobia in the post above. I've begun to explore this word. Oh, how easy is it to hurl words at each other, and so much the easier when Blair shifted the dictionary meaning to suit his own purposes. PC purposes.
But here I deal with an historic people, not the land they inhabit - nice try, but a failure!
Roof Top, I had family members who died in Treblinka, Belsen and Auschwitz. They were once Europeans living in Jewish settlements across Europe. My head of science at school was the first British NCO into Belsen. Frank Ford. Once, just once, he described what he found. He was a hard man, ever wielding the cane. But he cried, just that, he went beyond himself that day, when he spoke of what he found. No man could reasonably ignore him, and I didn't.
I've been in Germany and Austria and the same spirit is alive and well. More, it's virulent.
Roof Top, you may plead all the apologetics for Germany as come to your mind. But my mind will not change. The Barbarian spirit remains dominant in Germany. That country may not be trusted.
I quote again Margaret Thatcher, not my favourite prime minister:
" You have not anchored Germany to a unified Europe...You have anchored Europe to a newly unified and dominant Germany! In the end my friends, you will find it will not work."
Roof Top, in spite of claims of xenophobia, we all will face a real truth, well, sooner or later.
I've faced this truth, but, and here's the question you must answer ... have you?
And further, to label me as middle class ... well if earning a living by the sweat on one's brow is middle class, then, dear me, you must be nouveau riche!
Oh dear, deBrett's would indicate it requires four generations of accumulated wealth to even begin to be accepted into the wealthy class. As for the nobility, well, that's about a blood line. Sorry old chap, I'm working class, as I always intended to be, and you and yours ... nouveau riche. But, I do not decry you, your ambition or your wealth. As said elsewhere we both followed our dreams. We both eventually inhabited our dream. And that, when we both look back, may say, there was romance in that, wasn't there?
Yes, a great affair with what could be and now is.
Were you aware they are highly intelligent birds!
You need to pick a more suitable name for yourself.
I had a crow (injured) for many years and it spoke far more sence than you,and it didn't get its information off the TV.
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Can you let me know what you think of my post, but, before you respond, can you have a second look at my 2nd paragraph. You will see that I was challenging and disagreeing with a statement that was made on TV.
I read every word of your comment and that is why I suggested you change your user name.
Have a nice day.
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The problem I have with phrases such as "we waste our time" and "have a nice day" is that they are of no value.
They do not move the conversation forward. What they almost certainly show, are that the views and opinions of the writer are so fixed and blinkered that alternative opinions cannot be considered.
The Road is Long many a Winding Turn. For there Anthem the lyrics are very Apt.
The only people to gain are the stick and currency brokers as they take profits out of an uncertain situation created mainly by themselves.
The plan is to try and unravel 43 years of EU rules and legislation that we have woven into our way of life.
There could not possibly be a "plan" on the table ready to go for that tsunami of bureaucracy.
We know superficially what we want to happen, control our borders, reduce the pressure on our public servicers, stop single unskilled men from mainly outside the EU now from dumping themselves here, develop trade outside the EU on a level playing field without having to consult messrs Junckers and Tusk, prevent unelected clerks dictating policy. Those are the first important things. However there are libraries of rules, laws and dictats from our membership of the EU. I repeat, no plan could ever be created to deal with that, 1 hour, 1 week, 1 month or 1 year from the day after the referendum.
Was that not the focus of Brexit? It's almost the only thing we heard from them. It was only for that reason I mentioned it - certainly not "navel gazing" as most of us saw straight through this narrow minded approach.
If all else fails join " Confused.com".
We have been run for years by Lilly livered liberal politicians and look where it's got us,just look at Cammeron and his sp called deals with the EU.
You need conviction and to be one thing or the other and never be a fence sitter as you leave yourself wide open to forms of abuse.
Enjoy the sun while it lasts Wilf.
Cameron in February, returned here with a deal so poor it was like a second hand car without wheels. The he proceeded to 'sell' it to the British public. The more he talked the more my wife and I had the impression he didn't believe his own words. And throughout the campaign he worked just too hard.
Other Remain campaigners punched out distortions of truth, bordering on lies, and sometimes out right lies. Project Fear, so called. They all worked just too hard.
Now. I don't know much Shakespeare but a popular quote comes to mind. 'The lady doth protest too much, methinks.' Apparently from Hamlet.
But it does sum up the feelings in our home.
Why so much protest? Well, could it be because for most of his political life Cameron was a Eurosceptic. Once in No. 10 did he suddenly had a Damascus Road conversion? Unlikely, I must say. There just isn't the collateral evidence given in the Book of Acts where Saul of Tarsus had this miraculous change of mind. No, a more likely is the scenario ...
The constraints of his newly acquired High Office of Prime Minster compelled him to revert to his PR training and espouse the right line. Come the Referendum, well, he must have known he was very unpopular outside the Shires and if he went over the top in his campaign the opposite would result.
And it did! So Cameron actually won the Referendum, has effectively resigned from a job of which he once said, ten years in this job and one would be totally mad! After a suitable recuperation he will, like so many other high ranking Tories, be in line for directorships of banks, international outfits, and much more. A sinecure, highly paid and no direct responsibility. Best of all, no electorate, the dreaded voter.
Just an after thought. Roof Top, you still have business interests. I'm sure you could find Cameron a well paid bolt hole. How you would rate him on the asset register I can't imagine, but, please be creative.
The one thing that his critics wanted him to negotiate for the UK was the free movement of people. His critics knew that this could not be negotiated. In his critics eyes, he was doomed to failure before he got to Brussels.
Both sides lied. But the one lie that will be remembered and the one lie that will come back to haunt Johnson, Gove, Grayling and Farage is the £350 million a week that will go to the NHS if we vote leave.
Just change the name to Johnson. For years Boris has been writing articles in the papers very enthusiastically supporting our membership of the EU. When he realised that leading the leave campaign could lead to him being PM he jumped into the big red leave party bus.
And what have we seen in the past 24 hours, Boris launching his bid to be PM.
Thank you for assuming that I have any influence in business or ever had any influence in business. Nothing could be further from the truth.
The reality is that like all of our ex-PMs he will join the USA lecture circuit and write a book.
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The UK has a unique agreement with the EU. Not in Schengen, outside the Euro and a commitment from all the other 27 countries that the UK would to not be involved in any closer political union. We have voted to destroy that agreement and we are starting all over again.
Oh, for crying out loud!
"Not in Schengen" is irrelevant as far as free movement goes. Once anyone reaches a border within the EU they are FREE to travel anywhere unhindered across the whole of the EU. They can be anyone of any nationality. Why do you think terrorists love the free movement nonsense.
How long do you think it would be before we were forced into the Euro in years to come once our one and only leverage of voting out was removed.
"Not involved in closer political union". What about the Court of Justice who can overrule our laws and the 27 other nations can out vote us (as they have done many times) and therefore impose political union in any event.
I'd be very interested in what it was that Cameron and the EU council/commission cobbled together behind closed doors for Cameron to keep us in.
More please,as I am sick and tired of reading Crows comments!
As I wrote earlier my pet crow talked more sence than the great Europhile Roof Top.
May I recommend that you read and inwardly digest blue suede comment ,these are all proven facts and people who voted in needed their heads examined!
We need to stand together now, work together for the future and common good of this great country and put aside the past few months of upset and anger. If Scotland want to separate from us so be it, I hope they don't, they might regret it later on. Stand strong, stand proud and believe.
Second having felt that they were obviously not going to have a plan B in place that again shows the arrogance of the conservatives. Had that been done we would not have had all this turmoil, finally, i am not sure with this comment " Cameroon did say he would stand at the next G/E not the brexit vote ????"
I apologise if he did but whether -or- not i strongly believe he
should not have thrown his dummy out of his pram so early!
long live GREAT BRITAIN!
Judging by the number of downward red thumbs I get, a lot of Silversurfers do not agree with what I say. I do not have a problem with this response and it does not annoy me.
The only thing that annoys me is racism and xenophobia.
Very regrettably UKIP and the vote to leave is being used as a license to make racist comments.
This has spilled over into race hate slogans being daubed on a number of Polish social clubs. It brings back memories of jackbooted National Front members taunting immigrants on the streets of Britain in the late 80s.
New York Times June 27th, 2016.
A quick check with my online dictionary also supported your view.
Adjective
arrogant, haughty, conceited, disdainful, overbearing, pompous, condescending, superior, patronizing, imperious, proud, lofty, lordly, snobbish, snobby, overweening and smug.
I stopped at smug as I had definitely got the gist of what was being said.
They seem to have disappeared from public view. At the March 2016 demonstration in Cardiff just 25 National Front members turned up, Unfortunately some had to leave early because of the bank holiday train timetables.
I think you have an inkling of what you mean, but between head and keyboard something goes awry.
You mistake people's genuine concerns for something they are not. I thought this racism non issue that is often attempted to prevent real debate had been exposed for tripe that it is.
If you want taunting please try Luton, Bradford, Halifax, Southall, Regent Park mosque, Peterborough..............you can find it in spades, yes, white British on the receiving end, but that doesn't provide click bait or sell newspapers.
New York Times =Huffington Post nowadays.
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Xenophobia is a fear or hatred of foreigners or anything that is foreign or strange.
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A person who is violent and nasty in society is acting against the best interests of the rest of society
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I live in an area that has been SWAMPED by immigrants They hang around everywhere drinking and catching Swans and Ducks etc .Plus they fish out of season!
We have so many no go areas now and the place looks terrible!
You won't like the word swamped but that is exactly what area has been!
We have become the dumping ground of the EU /UK.
What is your reasoning behind mentioning UKIP along side racism.
I believe this hate is being done by the in voters to try to place the racism card on all those who voted to leave!
I think America needs to get its own house in order before passing comments on the UK.
Can we broaden this discussion and look at what is happening in the well paid and highly skilled sectors such as the IT industry. The IT industry in the UK employs thousands and thousands of people, pays them very well and is recognised as a world leader.
Within the high-tech IT industries, it has always been difficult to find potential employees who have suitable computer science qualifications. The country of birth is immaterial and businesses worldwide are in competition to find the brightest and the best. The UK does not pay as much as the USA and Germany, but the one major advantage we had in the past, was the attraction of living in the UK and within the EU.
The reality is that we all judge the values of other countries by what we see on the TV and just about every country in the world is watching the UK on its news channels.
All of us have seen on our TV screens the inward looking, small-minded, xenophobic and race hate statements that British people being interviewed on all the news channels have been happy to make. We have also seen it on this forum.
This same information is getting worldwide coverage and the UK is being shown abroad as an inward looking small-minded, xenophobic, racist and backward country where foreigners are not welcome. This morning international TV is reporting on racist attacks on Polish community centres in the UK.
Not surprisingly the international recruitment businesses in the IT industry has already seen a marked downturn in the number of applicants who want to come and work in the UK. This is not a surprise, who, after all, would want to have a working career in a country that is openly racist. And remember we have had just one day of the week following our decision to vote to leave.
If highly skilled people chose not to come and work in the UK it will not create job opportunities for low-skilled people from the UK or anywhere else. The companies and businesses that offer these jobs will leave the UK, they will take all of their employees to another country and not come back.
All you have written is absolute rubbish and I suggest once again you need to look at your information source!
Stop peddling half truths and misery on this site and run along to the Gaurdian playground where you will be welcomed with open arms!
Stop talking this country down and acting as though you are certain it's all doom and gloom.
I see that the fifth columnists have already tried to deny the out vote by using selected snippets from interviews from out voters to give the lie that they wanted to change their mind and apparently London hedonists think that they should be separatists.
Nothing has happened yet as all we have done as a nation is vote to leave the EU shackles. It is our two faced "pals" in the EU calling for us to go asap to protect their gravy train.
Journalists and the establishment have been dealt a body blow as this vote was also a vote on their competence with them overwhelmingly declaring "a remain outcome" after the vote.
We actually have a strong hand as far as trade goes which is why Angela Merkel is being less of an hysteric than Junckers and Tusk. Junckers, who is essentially an unelected (except by the council of ministers) clerk absolutely hates the UK after Cameron tried to block his appointment knowing he is a rabid centralist whose father was in the werhmacht and the vote was 26 -2 in his favour. The last British pm to try and block the president of the commission was John Major and that failed as well and the EU got Jacques Santer. Merkel knows that we import a huge amount of German goods and doesn't want to lose that market.
I assume once the dust has settled and the lights still work, gas is still used for cooking, the buses turn up, people get paid and Apple iphones are still in the shops that we will settle down to life without the unelected EU clerks.
What we should be focusing on is our buying power as who but people like Junckers who are on huge non performance salaries and couldn't careless if we buy less from our European neighbours would want to lose the billions we spend buying our neighbours' goods.
The government's gambit should be "if you want our business then it comes at a reasonable price, but try and punish us and we'll shop elsewhere".
We do have a great spirit in this country when it is raised, my fear is that is it something that the 18-40 age group is prepared to find and use as few have really ever lived through hard times and am not sure they have the moral fibre for a sustained regrouping of this country's greatest assets; its people.
Well done bluesuede your replys are always refreshing and factual!
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What is this moral fibre you talk so easily about. ?
Can you give some examples please.
The Government who did not want us out are now thinking of another Vote as they think that we did not want to come out and voted wrongly? what's this all about? Before ever we went into the EU we had good trading relations with many many Countries and we will find that we still will be able to trade probably at a better rate as we are not govern by Brussels. God Save our Lovely Queen, as she has served our Country and our people so well. No private life for her and her Family. We should all appreciate her a little more and for what she has done for this Country over the Years.
It must be very distressing for The Queen to have to recognise that the leave vote will see the end of our United Kingdom.
Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales all seeking independence and London and Brighton wanting special tax status.
Simple things like Balmoral being in another country. I assume that when the Royals want to travel to Scotland it would be on diplomatic visas or maybe they can have dual nationality.
I told you to get a new name as the crow is one of our most intelligent birds.
Stop talking as though your views are fact!
You don't have facts of the future at all,and you certainly don't help matters by talking down our future.
You need to look at what the last Bank of England Governor (the longest one ever)Sir Mervyn King has been saying these last few weeks,this is the voice of experience ,look him up and hopefully you may stop some of your negativity .
Trust the voice of experience not the Carneys of this world .
He is the X chancellors puppet.
We now need to hold our nerve, let's wait and see what happens, but whatever does happen it will be massively better than remaining in the corrupt, irresponsible and dishonest EU.
Go UK, Go England, Go Great Britain!
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What is it exactly you will do to create the jobs and income that ordinary working people need.
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And just a quick reminder. We are still full members of the EU and we will be for at least the next 2 years.
Of course it's going to be difficult. Civil unrest will break out and the metropolitans have the most to fear from that. This present sort out in Westminster is so very necessary and so long over due. So far it has not gone far enough.
I'll ask again, do your business interests employ low waged immigrant labour to the detriment of English labour?
An answer would be good.
What would I do? Well, as you've probably guessed, I'm not a politician, I wasn't even good at office politics.
However, a good place to start might be to empty our prisons of foreign criminals, then overhaul human rights and asylum rules and regulations.
Simultaneously we could kick start our manufacturing base by building a new luxury car that the world would die for, much like the RR and Bentley.
I would open up some coal mines to power our electricity generation in carbon capture state of the art power stations.
I would get a grip of the banks, I don't know how, but I could ask my ex as he knows everything.
I would requisition all second homes and use them to house our ex-service guys and others who are currently homeless. The owners could have them back when we have freed up the properties currently occupied by economically inactive migrants who would be sent back home with a small resettlement grant.
I would abolish the BBC and replace it with a People's Channel, funded through VOLUNTARY subscription and advertising.
I would limit the Royals to one London home and a seaside caravan. The freed up palaces would be converted into starter homes for young British people.
I would close all kebab shops, ban street eating, close the pubs at midnight at weekends, charge drunks for treatment at A&E, ban overly noisy motorbikes and limit footballers wages to £500.00 per week, but they would have to earn it!
Finally, I would recruit all crowers from rooftops into a 'people's think tank.'
A prisoner swap. 23,000
None UK citizens have been deported since 2010. That kind of deportation programme will stop when we leave the EU. We would then need the goodwill of those prisoners country of birth to say yes, please send them back. In the meantime, we may as well get our UK born criminals out of the overseas jails. I think there are 2000 of them.
Rolls-Royce is owned by BMW Germany and they are planning to build the next models in Dresden
Bentley is owned by Volkswagen Germany and there is talk of the whole plant in the UK being shifted to Wolfsburg
Property requisition. That would certainly block up the courts.
And the rest seems to be an implausible mix of requests. I suspect that you are just trying to amuse us.
Alternatively, have you thought about not reading the Daily Express and the Daily Mail for a while?
The best way to look at it in my opinion is to have a positive approach to the unknown future that lies ahead.It can be achieved with everyone working together.The politicians need to set a good example with accepting the situation and not fighting amongst themselves.they are not being paid to waste so much time attacking each other but rather to do a job -Just imagine if the rest of us behaved like the politicians at our work place and spent 70percent of our time arguing instead of being productive.
This is a great country,and right now it needs for people to come together to make it once again the envy of the world.
These are selected stories to ramp up sentiment. Who but the British could be so self critical on the say so of a few journalists.
I must say that we hardly ever hear of the Brit baiting by foreign nationals in this country or the sexual targeting of white Christian teenagers by muslims, the hundreds of Eastern Europeans sent back to Eastern Europe weekly by military planes from their own countries who have committed serious crimes here.
Please don't knock your own country as these isolated incidents happen everywhere, but it seems only the British get targeted by journalists.
I personally have not felt as proud to be British for many a year as I did on the morning of the 24th June after I heard the result of the vote.
Don't presume it's Brexiteers as I believe it is Inners doing it so that they can further their course for staying in and trying to brand Brexiteers Right Wing Racists!
Does anyone know what we want to buy from Australia that we cannot buy at the moment.
Does anyone know what we want to sell to Australia that we cannot sell to them at the moment.
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Does anyone know if the Australia free trade negotiations with the EU are still on the table for 2017.
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Australia has close to 1500 businesses in the UK, they use them as trading platforms with the EU. Does anyone have any thoughts on what might happen to these businesses when we leave the EU.
The import list from Australia is also very long and includes just about everything they want us to buy.
The same applies to a greater or lesser extent with countries such as New Zealand, Canada and the Commonwealth countries.
Have you any facts on what free trade deals with the Commonwealth countries would actually mean for the UK.
It's called spin with a capital "S".
No one was really hoodwinked. The press and disgruntled in voters would like people to believe that but it isn't true.
Medication time.
On 23rd June 2016 the UK population was given the opportunity to decide on our continuing membership of the EU using the referendum or direct democracy system.
500 of the MPs we elected in May 2015 using the representative democracy system wanted the UK to retain its membership of the EU. 150 MPs wanted us to withdraw our membership of the EU.
On 23rd June 2016 the UK population used the referendum or direct democracy system and voted to say they wanted the UK to withdraw its membership of the EU.
It is far too early to know what the outcome of leaving the EU will be for the UK.
What we do know is that all changes and laws that will be triggered by leaving the EU will have to be passed through the House of Commons and voted into UK law. There will be thousands and thousands of laws and directives that will have to be approved or rejected by the House of Commons.
Technically the 500 MPs that the UK elected in May 2017 could choose to reject all of these changes.
I am not saying these 500 MPs will reject any or all of the changes but we should all be aware that they have this option.
This forum asks us a simple question.
Do you think we’re facing chaos now we’re leaving the EU?
I think we all know we are facing chaos, and it will last for years.
Fifty years ago I passed British Constitution at 'O' level, class one. It was but a part of a decent academic success story. It ended with a first class BSc in Geology, which I paid for out of earned income.
In the course of studying Brit Con I learned that MP's do not represent the voters. No. According to some sort of directive passed to MP's around 1850, they are required to represent their party in a given area, a constituency. Locally a party is elected, not a person. We voters are of no account! Thus, to say this is a representative democracy is, well, rather simplistic. Rather naive, wouldn't you agree?
The same may be said of County Councils, District Councils and the worst of all, Parish Councils.
As you've written here these last couple of months I'm left with a conclusion you are a successful, self made metropolitan, urbane, wealthy and disconnected from a very real reality. What connection have you with shop floor workers? What connection with those in this generation who need a Friday pay packet?
And you pontificate here on remaining in the EU? For who's benefit? Yours? Your stance cannot be for the benefit of those, like your father, who rely upon a Friday pay packet. How many of your businesses employ cheap foreign labour, to the detriment of English labour. Of course, you'll say none, but you would, wouldn't you.
In answer to the forum question ... Chaos, yes. But here I'll say no worse than bankers and businessmen have put us in these last many years. Now let me say ...
I can stand the pain of Brexit, but can you. One wonders.
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None of us have any idea what is going to happen, the only thing we already know is that the promises made by both sides will not be kept.
Ian Duncan - Smith. We did not promise £350 million a week would go to the NHS.
Osborne. The emergency budget I threatened will probably not happen.
Boris. The EU is our most important trading partner, we need to improve our relationship with them.
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Cameron stepping down.
Corbyn will have to resign at some point.
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I am just about to disconnect myself from the real world by walking the dog.
They are fixed in a one size fits all system of blue sky thinking nonsense which is unsustainable and you think that WE have chaos!
How long do you think the mindless one size fits all has already been in operation in Europe.
I am loathe to be rude, but you strike me as one so in love with the leased 3 series, big shoes,big watch and iPhone junkies who thinks that being part of the EU is all about holidays, eating French cheese, the villa holiday in some European country with just enough wine knowledge to know the difference between French and New World plonk.
We need people with moral fibre who are not afraid of a challenge and love their country and are not morally defeated at the first hurdle. I served with plenty when I was in the RAF and wish there were more about today.
I am really not sure why you denigrate iPhones, Big Shoes, Big Watches and French Cheese. It seems even odder that you believe these things are symbols of a lack of moral fibre.
Maybe you can let us older Silversurfers know what you mean.
The EU is dealing with the confusion and disorder by welcoming ever more unskilled, illiterate, grievance mongering, ungrateful 3rd world malcontents, many of whom have committed despicable acts against their hosts.
If you want to see chaos, just look to the EU, NOT the UK.
It does not help the balance of this forum when you put forward your very offensive and totally unsubstantiated opinion that all refugees are to quote your words ”unskilled, illiterate, grievance mongering, ungrateful 3rd world malcontents”
Here I'll quote Maggie Thatcher;
" You have not anchored Germany to a unified Europe...You have anchored Europe to a newly unified and dominant Germany! In the end my friends, you will find it will not work."
And it's not, and will never work!
But, as you rightly say, it is a time to disconnect from the real world of dysfunctional politics, family and whatever else. Lovely time. A time to be alone ... so rare for people in this interconnected world.
So glad I'm nor interconnected.
Isnt Crow a depressing with his distorted views.
Thank goodness we were not dependant on people with his mentality in our wars.
As I said before most of us on these pages have no time for your negativity but the Gaurdian newspaper will love you.
As far as I know the last war we had ended in 1945.
I think nobody had any idea what they would do if we left the EU
1 will the channel tunnel be forced to close or will
passport control stalls be set-up & customs & excise patrol guards be checking suitcases with the ticket inspecter walking down the Eurostar as
it crosses the Euro-channel & approaches Folkstone
2 Now the PM has resigned! nobody is doing anything posative about the UK role outside Europe, when will the PM nominate a commitee
or commision to oversee or consolidate our unity with the commonwealth & other International leaders (welcome back New Zealand Lamb) bye bye Danish bacon.
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Ian Duncan-Smith has spoken on behalf of the Conservative party and said that they never promised £350 million a week for the NHS.
We will never know what it really was that Cameron agreed to behind closed doors if we voted to stay will we.
People also believed that this same £350 million a week would be diverted to the NHS if they voted to leave.
Ipsos Mori Poll 16th June.
47% of the UK population think it is true that if they vote to Leave then £350 million a week will be sent to the NHS .
The logic is, of course, that since the £350 million figure was a lie then the promise that the NHS would be getting £350 million a week is also a lie.
Chris Grayling 27th June. It is an aspiration and not a promise.
Nigel Farage 27th June. It was a mistake to say that, it is not true
Iain Duncan-Smith 26th June. We never said that we would do this, I never said that.
You can spin this whatever way you want but a lie is a lie.
Suzanne Evans UKIP
2 hrs •
A Prime Minister resigned. The £ plummeted. The FTSE 100 lost significant ground. But then the £ rallied past February levels, and the FTSE closed on a weekly high: 2.4% up on last Friday, its best performance in 4 months. President Obama decided we wouldn't be at the 'back of the queue' after all and that our 'special relationship' was still strong. The French President confirmed the Le Touquet agreement would stay in place. The President of the European Commission stated Brexit negations would be 'orderly' and stressed the UK would continue to be a 'close partner' of the EU. A big bank denied reports it would shift 2,000 staff overseas. The CBI, vehemently anti-Brexit during the referendum campaign, stated British business was resilient and would adapt. Several countries outside the EU stated they wished to begin bi-lateral trade talks with the UK immediately. If this was the predicted apocalypse, well, it was a very British one. It was all over by teatime. Not a bad first day of freedom.
For all the Negative talk & comments from MPs & brussels. Look how there all wanting to do Business with us..Not bad for our first day of getting our country back.. This will surprise all them Chickens out there..
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Suzanne said in 2014 that UKIP has very little support in cities as the populations tend to be educated, cultured and young. After blaming immigrants for the housing shortage she then admitted that she herself owns 2 properties and shares ownership in a 3rd
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It is far too soon to be able to make any kind of judgement about the future of the UK outside of the European Union.
Please run along and stop trying to depress us all with your negativity.
We gave all had a belly full of Cameron and Osbournes lies all these weeks that we now need time to relax and bathe in the thought of Brexit!
The Government that was elected a year ago does not know. The opposition party does not know, none of the government advisors know, and none of the financial experts know. Even worse, no one on the Silversurfers forums knows.
But it seems that you do know what is going to happen as a result of the vote to leave the EU.
Are you able to give us an outline of what we can expect? Can you tell us why we will have an improved standard of living, can you tell how this will affect things like the NHS and education.
Nothing to complex, please.
You have written that many comments on doom and gloom and how sure you are of the outcome ,that to waste time conversing with you.
People write on here telling you all the things good that they hope for and their optimism knows no bounds .But of course you have to always put a negative repetitive slant on all their conversations .
Once would have been enough ,we get your message now!
Don't feel sorry for the young most probably didn't vote anyway it's the older generation that always vote and have you thought that these older voters don't have children and grandchildren to worry about.
You absolutely have no idea about the effects of immigration the good and the bad effects of it on our country ,put your Mills and Boon book down go out and look around the country.
The EU was birthed in lies and deceit, has existed in the same way and knows no other means to continue. Nothing, absolutely nothing, may prosper with a foundation of lies and deceit. It's a spiritual law evidenced in history so often. Todays news at least five other countries within the EU are seeking a referendum on the question of their sovereignty rather bears this out.
I have little doubt some arguments and claims made by the Brexit people here grew from very same foundations. In a little while you will know them for what they are.
No lasting prosperity is birthed in the illusion created in lies and deceit.
My wife and I voted out, you won't be surprised to read. We did that for my wife's children and grand children - soon to be great grand child if one of them doesn't wise up. We voted leave not to improve their chances of prosperity outside the EU, not to give them a better material start. No. We voted leave for them never to be inveigled into this web of deceit, this relentless pursuit of wealth, this illegitimate power structure from which now, only now, have we begun to extricate ourselves.
And not before time.
I think some of the comments from other EU member countries illustrates that it isn't a stable, beneficial, or working institution; and that's before the other less affluent countries ascend to its ranks. There's a lot to consider, and a panicking/sensationalist media doling out only negatives won't help. Neither will an early 2nd Scottish Referendum - we still have far too many uncertainties and unknowns to be addressed; Wales have declared that Labour doesn't work for them - and they want something different, as do many areas of England....Ireland may even get over historic differences as an end result? None of us knows-but if we work together and insist on positive change, maybe a new credible and honest breed of politicians will emerge....it's the least Jo Cox deserves after such a cruel and racist based murder - such evil hatred and sadness has to be redressed and overturned.
In my unsure but positive frame of mind, I am hoping that the sky is unlikely to fall in tomorrow, or even the day after, so I'll take that as a sign that the world and our lives will continue and we can take time to reflect on the Brexit situation - I will also fervently hope that whatever and whoever the future holds in terms of how the UK performs, will be democratic, fair, and just........I think we deserve a bit of stability, truth, and hope after the past few years.
If people would just calm down, it's over, and done the democratic way.
One thing i did not like, was some remain voters trying to suggest that migrants working here where suddenly going to find themselves having to leave the Country which is why i think London got remain vote.
Come Monday morning nothing will have changed and won't change for for a good while yet.
Lets just stick together and get the Country back the way we want it.
As far as the young people go most probably didn't bother to vote anyway,too busy taking selfies!
The EU is in a mess watch for more leavers soon.
It wasn't a referendum it was a revolution against our weak and lying government,and a corrupt and inefficient EU !
Mr Trump will make a better president than Mrs Clinton plus he likes us British not like the idiot they have now in the White House.
Young people did come out and vote and they feel let down by their elders who are happy to just take and not give without thought for the future.
I agree the EU is a mess but you can only affect change from within. This country is too small and ineffectual to achieve much on its own. The vote was - as you say - a revolting act with people not considering the important issues only the prejudices fuelled by Murdoch and his acolytes - he wanted out because he can't control the EU like he can No 10.
As for Trump he only likes himself, Obama has been an excellent President.
Still I must shut up as us in the 48% have lost - for now.
The arguments were all about statistics not trust.
The major issue about Immigrants was disgraceful as fellow residents of the EU have freedom of movement and should not be called immigrants aw they are not
The real need to work together in an increasingly joined up world is essential if we, as British, are to get a reasonable deal from big business.
It was set up as a financial scam to let the big companies rule the world but as it is growing business are being defeated by the actual needs of the rest of us. The TTIP appears to have been rejected by the EU and a good thing too but now!!!!!!!!!
Who knows what we as a single country can do against world wide companies, there are even more influential than countries and we need to work together to oppose much of the capitalist "improvements" they want to impose!
We were the fifth largest economy last night. Since the pound devalued we're not, France is.
1. Because the thousands of people flooding into UK without jobs EU law says we have to house/feed and give Benefits to while our young people even in work, struggle to get decent jobs, get on housing ladder or even rent.
2. I don't want our young people to watch rapists/killers/drug dealers wandering our streets on Benefits because we can't deport them.
3. Do our young people see the young people in Greece/Portugal/Spain without jobs? These Countries are in the throws of a lot of unrest at the moment, would a remain vote be able to stop UK going the same way? No, we will never know, i just wish people moaning about the result would get behind their Country and make Britain a United Kingdom again.
1. Migrants bring more into our economy than they take. We also need these young immigrants to support our ever ageing society.
2. If charged, they would go to prison like all of the other domestic scum we have on our streets.
3. If the European union began to collapse and actually negatively effected our economy, we could have left at any point. Getting back in, if they flourish, however, is not going to happen. It's the leave voters who have hugely gambled on the "mystery box", not the remain voters.
This country has made a huge mistake.
Year after year confidence in the EU has been crumbling as it does not be able to sort any crisis just keeps chucking millions if not billions at countries that are in trouble.
However, now we are going to be dealing with this on our own doorstep - we're going to have migrant and refugee camps in Dover instead. We will no longer have the French protecting the border crossing. Leaving the EU is not going to stop the refugee crisis, or desperate people trying to reach our shores - but we are, now, going to have to handle that alone. I'd be very concerned if I lived in Dover or Folkestone, et al, right now.
I agree that confidence in the EU has been dropping, and there are certainly a lot of broken aspects in the system - but we are certainly far weaker, poorer, and far less influential without it.
Referencing "just keeps chucking millions if not billions at countries": I fully understand your frustration, but I think we'll have a lot more refugees and illegal immigrants if we allow countries around us (the poorer EU countries) to collapse.
We should have stayed in and tried to fix the system, but now, we will have no influence over our huge neighbourhood.
As for the immigrants earning money and supporting our economy I would agree but a very large portion of this money is sent back to their own countries which is fine but it distorts the figures,that's why the UK is called the Royal Bank of Poland and Romania
Then there is the black economy,cash in hand no tax, pickpocket gangs from Romania .
And it wasn't a ridiculous referendum just because you didn't like the outcome ,it's called democracy !
They'll probably provide the boats for them ... so much for better border control!
We really need to calm down. The ordinary hard working people made their decision. It's called Democracy.
As for fixing the EU, it is impossible to change the way Eurocrats think. Latest greatest idea is reduce power of kettles and toaster to save fuel, they don't know it take the same energy but just takes longer.
We are better off without that kind of thinking.
Older voters have children and grandchildren think on that.
God help the UK, is all I can say.
And the EU hasn't filed an audit, because it's books wont balance, what kind of a business is that we were dealing with.
Just exactly what have those of you who voted Leave got to celebrate?
The rest of Europe will follow our lead and leave.
If most of the young voters had bothered to vote we would still be in the EU ,they are too busy taking selfies ,but we older voters always vote.
What about BHS which closed down. This had nothing to do with us leaving the EU but it's the same principle, they didn't give a hoot about their employees. Our government were told by the EU that they could not step in to save TATA Steel. Do you think that what the right EU decision? I am disgusted at the behaviour of the EU and you should be too.
Europe played it's part but not on it's own.