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Should Parliament have the final say on Brexit?

Parliament must vote on whether the government can start the Brexit process, the Supreme Court has ruled.

The judgement means Theresa May cannot begin talks with the EU until MPs and peers give their backing – although this is expected to happen in time for the government’s 31 March deadline.

But the court ruled the Scottish Parliament and Welsh and Northern Ireland assemblies did not need a say.

Brexit Secretary David Davis will make a statement to MPs later on Tuesday.

During the Supreme Court hearing, campaigners argued that denying the UK Parliament a vote was undemocratic.

But the government said it already had the powers to trigger Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty – getting talks under way – without the need for consulting MPs and peers.

What are your views on the breaking news? Does this new ruling make our democratic vote a mockery? Should this have been established before the referendum? What are the implications if Parliament don’t ratify the democratic vote?  

Should Parliament have the final say on Brexit?

873 people have already voted, what's your opinion? Yes No

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mercury
23rd Apr 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
We've HAD the final say! It was called a referendum. Let it go for God's sake and let's get out before we all die of prevarication.
Roof Top Crow
11th Mar 2017
0
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For many many years, we have lived very successfully with a representative democracy. So it makes sense for this to continue, and give parliament the final say on Brexit.

A year ago, a Conservative Government being led by David Cameron, broke the cardinal rule in political life “never ask a question if you do not know the answer”. Cameron organised a referendum without knowing what the answer was going to be. The answer was not what he wanted.

And now we have all the political parties that make up Parliament and the House of Lords struggling to find any kind of plan for the future because leaving the EU is not in this countries best interest.

The Conservative Government are responsible for this debacle. But, they have nothing positive to say, and all they can now do is make statements about the future of the UK that cannot be verified or substantiated. For example, they are asking us to believe that the 27 other countries in EU membership will agree to trading agreements and tariffs that will be good for the UK, but not good forth the other 27 countries.

Very soon the Conservative Government they will issue Article 50 in the hope that the noise and clamour that will follow will cover up the total fiasco they have created.

No wonder the Labour Party are leaving Corbyn in place. The next few years are going to be a political poison chalice for both front benches.
Yodama
11th Mar 2017
0
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Are we truly a democracy? I do believe in the United Kingdom we are in fact a constitutional monarchy?
Roof Top Crow
11th Mar 2017
0
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Vou are correct in as much as the Monarch is head of state but the powers of the Monarch are defined and limited in a written or unwritten constitution.

Thinking about it for a moment it seems to me that although we have a constitutional monarchy society manages its affairs as though we have a representative democracy.
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Saturday afternoon is not the time for me to be thinking about all of this. I am going watch the football, the rugby and do a bit of early spring gardening.
jimt43
10th Mar 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
I have some sympathy with the view that parliament should have the final say on Brexit terms. However I also think that the EU would then be likely to make any the final terms so harsh and unacceptable in the hope that the UK parliament would be bound to reject them. Prolonging the process in he hope that the UK would then stay within the EU. I also think that in this case the British People have spoken and therefore that should over-rule the procrastination's of parliament. So Good Luck to Teresa May with this.
Jenninora
10th Mar 2017
-1
Thanks for voting!
Hmm, I think Parliament will have a say ( not sure if it will be final though. ) It will be lost somewhere in the ether.
However I voted, in my realm, was for me to decide what was best in our circumstances.
Overall a confusion exists.
Brex-it or Wreck-it, come what may.
Now I will climb back up on my perch, with my looking glass and view my fair land to the South and the East.
Jenninora
8th Mar 2017
-1
Thanks for voting!
You ask why quite a number of us on Silver Surfers do not participate on the forums. To personally answer that, I will say that not knowing enough of the facts on why a Brexit, I would not be savvy enough to read into everything on its detail. So much detail. I know that discontent has been abound for a long time,hence,why people have come to the decision they did on Brexit. Take the Health and safety decisions here. I think a bit of strangling in U K.
I was well advised to take out a private pension. I had to find my own way to pay into that. As a member or not a member of the E U we have to pump up the leaders official pensions of 27 nations who are trying to govern the E U. Have they done well,governing??
Come on, what else, I could go on and on.
Over the last 40 years I have listened, watched successive U K government leaders scrape and bow to the electorate and then fall foul on a return on policy. Swinging from one type of government to another. A lot of people are tired and unhappy. No wonder they came to the decision on leaving. Now let the moves forward unveil something better for the people. Let time, as it always has produce the reason for something like this in life. Faith in what is to be. Strength offered and we shall watch.
Roof Top Crow
9th Mar 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
Thank you for replying.
Leaving the EU will be difficult and complex and us ordinary UK citizens cannot hope to understand it all. It will need specialist knowledge and skills.

Unfortunately, the team negotiating our withdrawal from the EU are not specialists. None of these politicians have a track record of success in any field and yet we are asked to believe they understand how to negotiate with 27 other countries the most significant and society changing agreement in our lifetime and our children's lifetime.

I never thought I would say this “thank goodness for the House of Lords”. At the moment they are making the government justify itself.

A lot has been written about the 52% who voted to leave the EU. Most commentators put it down to discontent. A discontent driven by a feeling that whilst footballers, celebs, the metropolitan elite and illegal immigrants are getting everything most people in society are getting less So any change in government and society must be worth trying.

Much of this feeling of haves and have nots in society comes from headlines in The Mail and The Express. Typically the headlines that grab our attention feature money, cheating, immigrants claiming benefits and sex, sometimes all in the same headline. However, if you start from the last sentence in these articles you will normally find a disclaimer. But by that time the damage has been done and millions of papers sold.

Pensions. The reality is that every time you buy anything from eggs in a supermarket to petrol at the pumps a percentage of the profit goes into the businesses pension plan.

The UK has been a member of the EU for 40 years. When we joined the UK was a failing economy and we were one of the poorest countries in Europe. In 40 years we have become the 5th strongest economy in the world and the 2nd strongest in Europe. The key was to be part of a tariff-free trading area of 500 million people. We are now planning to withdraw from that tariff-free trading area.

Health and Safety regulations ensured that asbestos could not used, lead and toxic solvents were removed from paint and cars throughout the EU became very much safer to both drive and survive in and much more.

Successive UK governments have been little more than average. But on the other hand, they have given us 70 years of peace. They have given us high levels of employment, pensions for the elderly, much better health for everybody and a lots more.

I voted to stay and I think the 52% have voted to make life worse for all of us.

I assume from your article you voted to leave. I would be very interested to know how you would like life to change in the UK as non-EU members, what is it that you are expecting to get better.
Roof Top Crow
8th Mar 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
On Silver Surfers we put forward our opinions on what Brexit means, but all too often we wrap our opinions in our own ill-informed anxieties. I include myself in that statement.

I was reading an article by Andrew Walker on the BBC web site. It has a sharing reference as follows www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38910578

If you want to read the article directly from the BBC web site just click on the link or copy and paste the link into your browser.

It is an article that details some of the commercial challenges this government faces as it negotiates our exit from the EU and the options they have if we do not get an agreement. It is well written and without bias. Please take a few minutes to read the full article.
~
As an EU member, the UK and UK-based firms can sell their goods to EU customers without them having to pay additional taxes. Likewise, British firms and consumers can import from the EU tariff-free.

The prime minister has already ruled out continued membership of the EU's single market post-Brexit, with many assuming this means the UK will also leave the customs union.

So what will we do instead?
Essentially there are two options:
 a newly negotiated trade deal like the EU has with Canada or South Korea - but the EU's record is one of slow progress in similar talks, and political tensions from the Brexit process could also be an obstacle
 an arrangement sometimes called World Trade Organization (WTO) terms

But what is the WTO?
The WTO is an international agency with 164 member countries and its purpose is to promote international commerce. All the leading world economies are members of the WTO, including the UK. European Union countries are also all members, but they act together in the WTO as the EU.

Why can't the UK and EU just carry on as before?
One of the most important principles of the WTO is that you should not discriminate between other WTO members. The UK and the EU would both have to impose on one another's exports the same barriers they apply to goods from the other WTO member countries. In fact, in the absence of a free trade agreement, they would be obliged under WTO rules to do that.

What are these barriers?
They include import tariffs, which are taxes applied only to imports. WTO members make commitments that they will not raise tariffs above a certain level. Those maximum levels, known as bound levels or bindings, vary from country to country and product to product. The tariffs they actually apply can be, and in many cases are, below those levels. But if you do go below bound levels, you have to do it for imports from all WTO members.

How high are these tariffs?
For the EU the average maximum tariff is 4.8% for all goods. But within this average there are some big variations. The tariff for agricultural produce, for example is 10.9%, while for cars it's 10%. But for other goods it's 3.9%.
Assuming the UK were trading with the EU under WTO terms, the figures are an indication of the levels of tariffs British exporters would face on their goods. It would make them less competitive in the EU market than they currently are with no tariffs at all.

Why doesn't the UK just change the tariffs it charges?
The UK's new schedule will have to have the consent of the other WTO members. It is administratively easier and less likely to be contested if we stick with the arrangement that we already have, as the UK's ambassador to the WTO, Julian Braithwaite. wrote in his blog: "So to minimise any grounds for objection, we plan to replicate our existing trade regime as far as possible in our new schedules."

However, the UK would be free to apply lower tariffs. In some cases it is highly likely we would. For example, the EU imposes seasonal tariffs on orange imports when the Mediterranean producers have their harvest. Getting rid of that is an example of what one former trade official described to me as "low hanging fruit".
Some economists, including Patrick Minford of Cardiff University and one of the leading members of Economists for Brexit, favour a more comprehensive exercise in cutting tariffs and other barriers unilaterally. But these cuts would have to apply to goods coming from the EU as well.

This seems quite simple. I thought negotiations would be complicated?
Don't be fooled, some aspects will be more complicated. For some farm produce, for example, the EU has quotas that can be imported at lower tariffs (called tariff rate quotas). We don't yet know how these will be divided between the UK and the remainder of the EU.

There is also the question of what happens to that produce when it is traded between the UK and the EU. Currently it is tariff-free. Both will probably want a slice of the other's reduced tariff quota. That will mean either a bigger total quota or a reduced slice for some other country. The EU however is well below its subsidy cap and that could make this less contentious than it might have been.
In the WTO, the EU has agreed to a cap on some of its farm subsidies. We don't currently know what type of system the UK will adopt and potentially this an area of difficulty.

Will higher or lower tariffs be the only change?
No. There are many other types of trade restrictions. These include rules on product specifications, labelling, testing, and requirements for authorisation from a national regulator to provide some types of services. The UK would have to decide whether or not to maintain EU rules in these areas.

What if the UK and the EU simply can't agree on trade tariffs?
Currently a trade dispute would be a matter for the European Court of Justice. Theresa May has already said that its jurisdiction in the UK will end. If there is a trade agreement with the EU it would probably contain some arrangement for a tribunal to make rulings.

If there is no such deal then any dispute would have to go to the WTO's dispute settlement system, which can establish panels to make rulings.

Whatever happens, the UK and the EU will be subject to WTO rules. It is just that the membership of the EU and any new trade agreement that might be negotiated allows for deeper integration than is involved in simply complying with the WTO's
Wilf
8th Mar 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
Hello RoofTopCrow...good to see you back on Silversurfers...I missed you comments. Very interesting information here-Thanks
jimt43
10th Mar 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
This is very interesting and helpful. Thanks.
Yodama
8th Mar 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
White chocolate is really not chocolate at all - dismissed.

Milk chocolate, since Kraft bought out our beloved Cadbury's, it is just sugar with a smidgen of chocolate flavour - dismissed.

Unsweetened chocolate is for me unpalatable - dismissed.

Semi- sweet or dark chocolate varies it is however acceptable.

Montezuma chocolate is the chocolate I choose, British company, British made and delicious. Chocolate beans sourced from the Dominican Republic.

My question is; why don't more Silver Surfers participate in these fora, I believe we have many thousands dotted around, so where are they?
Waiting for Article 50 to be triggered, put your seatbelts and hard hats on. I hope Theresa May is made of the stern stuff she portrays.
Roof Top Crow
8th Mar 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
I suspect that there are a lot of people who read what we write but chose not to participate. I now that prior to the referendum I had far more negative ticks than there were contributors. Maybe the editorial team has that data.
Yodama
7th Mar 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
The deed is done, whether it is allowed to go through or not is all subjective. A single pensioner such as myself is not going to make a jot of difference unless another referendum is called for.
I am therefore not making any prognostications or becoming stressed about events out of my control or Pie in the sky predictions.

Sorry RTC. I would rather eat seven boxes of chocolate than debate this futile issue any longer. I know what I know, you know what you know, neither of us is going to convince the other so........stalemate it is! Too tired of all the argy bargy.
Bring on the dwarves, let's have a middle earth party.
Roof Top Crow
7th Mar 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
Chocolate. It primarily falls into the following categories, white chocolate, milk chocolate, semisweet chocolate, bittersweet chocolate and unsweetened chocolate.

But seriously, don't go. After Article 50 is triggered it will become even more complicated and we need this platform to exchange our opinions and try to make sense of this mess.

Lots of Silver Surfers read what you and I write, even if they do not participate.

Time for me to sign off. Newsnight is on in 30 minutes.
Yodama
7th Mar 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
You say Defence of Middle Earth,suggesting a hapless bunch of dwarves vainly struggling to meet the all powerful enemy? ( I do believe they won the war)
Not at all!
You however have mentioned it and so you yourself may be stuck in the realms of fantasy and the unreal . I am searching my memory banks here, nope, J.R.R. Tolkien was not instrumental in any decision making nor the Brexit vote.

We speak of Reality:

We have tied ourselves to the eu and have lost our democratic right, once its an european competence we cannot change the law how you vote in a general election cannot change what happens, so the parties draw up manifestos but anything they say about agriculture is irrelevant
Its all decided by the eu, anything on trade is all decided by the eu.
Specific promises in the manifestos turn out to be undeliverable because of the eu

The eu always ignores referendums it ignored the french one on the constitution, the irish one on dublin, the danish one on maastricht, the netherlands on the constitution, the greeks voted in a referandum against austerity, it was ignored. All brushed aside and they marched on.

So the eu has the symbols of a state, the powers of a state and it makes laws that is not democratically accountable. It is worse than that, because it is a failed state, look at what the eu has done and what it has failed to do.Look at its failings and see that it wants more powers still when there is no doubt it will fail further.
Look at the common agriculture policy, 40 percent of eu spending goes on the common agricultureal policy, but it makes farmers less efficient, it makes consumer prices more expensive, and it hits the poorest farmers in the world by making it hard for them to export their products to us. The farmers 3 crop rules, ( 98 % farmers voted out ) the red tape and the paperwork they have to fill out that makes them less productive farmers. They are also hit with higher tariffs on agricultural chemicals they buy, to protect the german chemical industry.. It makes the production of food less competitive which This leads to higher prices for food for the consumer.
Because the eu runs a failed agricultural policy
The money that our farmers get is from the British taxpayer, so much more sensible to do it for outselves.
The common fisheries policy is worse, the destruction it has wrought on our fishing communities by about half from where they were since 1973, it is one of the great tragedies of our membership the fishing communities were small but now they are smaller still. Communities have been ruined by fishing policy that has made the once richest seas in the world empty. The dearth of cod and as an almost endangered species, which are now beginning to recover, sea bass, it is illegal to catch a single one, if you go out in your boat and catch one for your family, you have commited a criminal offence because or the eu, what a tragedy the common fisheries has been.

I could quote you pages upon pages if you so please.

Your remarks about the fruit growers are old hat, there is a gigantic upsurge in our local farmers taking up the slack, I copy below just one instance:
Ex-Univeg UK man joins soft-fruit specialist
Global Plant Genetics appoints Paul Ward to its technical division as it looks to build on current successes and add new crops

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I suggest you pay more attention to the multinationals who are busily unpicking the NHS, ( previous post on Cut foreign aid, and use all the monies saved to help the NHS). Good idea to do more research.
My very sad response to the lying media is just that, very sad indeed, sad that the people we trust blatantly tell us inflated stories, why you would mention Donald Trump or Obama, when I am discussing our own problems beats me?, I was referring to just one event in the whole theatre of war and wars ( used to be called disinformation).
I copy here: In a 2010 interview, Chomsky compared media coverage of the Afghan War Diaries released by Wikileaks and lack of media coverage to a study of severe health problems in Fallujah. While there was ample coverage of Wikileaks there was no American coverage of the Fallujah study, in which the health situation in Fallujah was described by the British media as "worse than Hiroshima".
Chomsky also asserts that the media accurately covered events such as the Battle of Fallujah but because of an ideological bias, it acts as pro-government propaganda. In describing coverage of raid on Fallujah General Hospital he states that The New York Times, "accurately recorded the battle of Fallujah but it was celebrated...it was celebration of ongoing war crimes". The article in question was "Early Target of Offensive Is a Hospital".
It was revealed on October 2, 2016 that the Pentagon paid British PR firm Bell Pottinger $540mn to create fake terrorist videos, fake news articles for Arab news channels and propaganda videos.
An investigation by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism revealed the details of the multi-million pound operation. Bell Pottinger is understood to have been funded some $540million from the US Department of Defence (DoD) for five contracts from May 2007 to December 2011, according to the Times and the Bureau of Investigative Journalism. Lord Tim Bell, the former spin doctor to Margaret Thatcher, confirmed Bell Pottinger reported to the Pentagon, the CIA and the National Security Council on its work in Iraq
I would walk my dog if I had one, maybe polish up a crystal ball or two and polish my dwarf toenails.
Yodama
7th Mar 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
Apologies are in order for gross spelling errors and missed punctuation, however, in the throes with no regard at all for the niceties,
Roof Top Crow
7th Mar 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
Brexit does not scare me personally. My concern is for the people who will lose out when the UK is no longer a member of the EU, the strongest and wealthiest trading group in the world.

The UK needs to be part of the EU because being in membership gives business and commerce a fantastic opportunity to able to create profits and profits get taxed. Tax collected by the treasury is needed to be to run the social and public services that make the UK one of the best places in the world to live.

Outside of membership, the UK will not have this opportunity and lower profits from business and commerce and means less tax for the treasury.

To say that we can make up for this lost opportunity by trading with Canada, New Zealand, India and China is a cruel and heartless forecast. It is an opinion that comes from people who have never been in business and commerce. I was in international business all of my working life and I know that transacting business anywhere outside of Europe is fraught with delays and simple things like huge travel costs, transport costs and tariffs.

It is only career politicians and blinkered fantasists such as Farage that have the gall to put forward a story that we can make up what we lose by leaving the EU by trading with the rest of the world. On 6TH March David Davis told a TV audience that the African continent presents us with a golden opportunity to trade. Such meaningless claptrap left me almost speechless. Thankfully, I can get this out of my head by writing this response to Lionel.

But to return to my first sentence. We are at the end of the mini boom caused by the devaluation of sterling and collapsing oil prices. Income growth is falling and inflation is rising. Within a couple of years, we will have millions more households living below the poverty threshold. To add to this situation we are entering a period of even more austerity, social welfare cuts and falling household incomes. All at the behest of this disastrous Conservative government who are yet again reducing funding for education and training.

This is all set against a background of massive changes happening in technology, robotics and machine learning which means that there will not be as many jobs for the unskilled and semi-skilled. Conversely, there will be even more jobs and even higher incomes for the highly skilled.

As you often remind Lionel, we can learn from history. Need I remind you of what happened in the industrial revolution. It destroyed manual farming and drove people into the cities where they became cheap and valueless workers. The technology revolution that has already started, may well do the same.

And your last sentence. On one level, it is easy to sneer at my business skills. On the other hand, I have employed lots of people and some have gone on to create their own independent success having learned business skills as our employees.

As age slows me down me down I chose not to be part of day to day business. I now support new businesses, improve my cooking, play more bridge and go to the cinema in the afternoon.
Lionel
4th Mar 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
Ah, you've emerged from the shadows of a post industrial, post Christian society.

Brexit still scares you ... why? The very people of both first the Agricultural and then the Industrial revolution took risks. They were a singular people ahead of their times, were they not? Without Telford there would have been no canals, without Stephenson no railways and worse. Without 'Turnip Townsend' no modern agriculture.

Roof Top, you're a gambler par excellence, I'll give you that. Businessman, no, just a gambler. You could have won your money equally well on roulette tables. I think you fear a real Brexit for what it will do for you. You see Brexit diminishing your personal wealth. I seem to recall we've covered this territory already.

Brexit is a well calculated gamble, and the early signs are the Brits are winners. Just forget our politicians, they don't form wealth, no, just spend it. Politicians as far back as Robert Walpole learned to spout the things people wanted to hear. Like your businness accounts. the bottom line is more important.

Rooftop, Stuart, why not open your mind to the so many new possibilities of accumulating wealth instead of moaning about vapid opportunies which are, in truth, ethereal and ephemeral. Yes, that is a case of piling superlative upon superlative. I learned that in your beloved Euro-Britain. I also learned how easily people lie.

Sad, isn't it, or don't you care?
Roof Top Crow
1st Mar 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
Negotiating our way through the risks of leaving the EU.

For the past 8 months, I have listened to the three career politicians responsible for managing our exit from the EU. Boris Johnson our Foreign Secretary, David Davis with responsibility for Brexit negotiations and Liam Fox who is our international trade secretary.

I have heard them on the radio, I have seen them being interviewed on the TV and I have read their articles in the press. It is quite clear that none of them have the skills and experience to be able to do the job they have been asked to do.
For example, this was Boris Johnson on 28th Feb. The UK could be "ever-more European and ever-more internationalist" and at the same time, there is "every reason" to believe a "win-win" EU deal could be done within two years.

The first part of the sentence makes no sense whatsoever and the second part shows a total ignorance of the realities of contract and negotiated agreements.

It is now clear that these three career politicians do not have the ability, the experience in business, or experience in negotiating trade agreements to be able to do what they have been appointed to do.

And yet when politicians such as Tony Blair and John Major who both have years of experience in negotiating trade agreements and international negotiations put forward a view of the risks we face in leaving the EU and how best to negotiate our departure they are trashed by the”Leave the EU” body of opinion.

So my question is simple.
Now that we have voted to leave the EU why is it believed by so many people that inexperienced career politicians such as Boris, Davis and Fox are better able to understand the risks of leaving the EU and will be better at negotiating our exit from the EU than very experienced politicians such as Blair and Major.

As I write, I suspect I know the answer.
The Leave the EU believers know that they have made a mistake. And as the commercial and social realities are starting to be identified, panic is setting in. So rather than admit that they were wrong they are shouting very loudly to try and drown out the news that inflation is starting to bite, the NHS has a staff crisis that can only get worse and easily understood things like the fruit picking industry will disappear from the UK.
Yodama
4th Mar 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
Another brilliant psychic deduction RTC, my oh my! This decision to leave the EU has certainly uncovered a plethora of crystal balls predicting doom and gloom on the horizon.
Better polish up those balls, they seem to be occluded.
I sense no panic, I sense positivity and a steely resolve, a nation eventually grasping the mettle, a nation emerging from slow strangulation and domination of our fair lands and people, a nation who will find the core strength that saw us through world wars.
To shake free from the very same people who tried to enslave us in the first place.

Emerging from this will no doubt need negotiators of a certain calibre. How you can mention Tony Blair and John Major and negotiation in the same breath astounds me! They are the very people who are the toady's of the EU Elite. Any deal they would negotiate would put us smack bang into the very arena from which we are trying to escape. Teflon Blair is trying to salvage as much as he can for his masters.

The NHS was already in trouble, so do not try playing that card. Without a doubt we will be punished for attempting to leave the 'club', dirty tricks brigade is hot on the job.
We will have our fruit pickers, nurses, and anyone else who has the qualifications to want to work in UK; it will not stop, it will just filter out the freeloaders.

It would be interesting to see how you arrive at ' panic sets in', from where you got your false information, not our friendly lying Media by any chance.
Oh, wait that damn crystal ball again!
Roof Top Crow
6th Mar 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
In a way you are correct. It is crystal ball time. Following the referendum, nobody can predict the future with any sense of certainty. As Brexiteers or Remainers we are all now living in a time of great uncertainty.

I read the words, positivity, steely resolve, grasping the nettle, a nation emerging from slow strangulation, domination of our fair lands, core strengths, world wars, enslavement. For a moment I thought you were talking about the defense of Middle Earth.

But I do understand what you mean. Unfortunately, our future lies in the hands of civil servants and career politicians and we all know that they are not exactly warriors and fighters.

I believe the referendum decision was a mistake as do 48% of those that voted. But the decision taken by 52% of the people who voted is the direction we are taking.

My point about Blair and Major is that despite some failures they also had some great successes in their political lives. They have a huge amount of experience and we should listen to them even if we do not agree with them. Just as we listen to the likes of Farage, Cameron, Corbyn, Johnson etc. We listen and then we can choose to agree or disagree. The right of free speech is a core principle of the British way of life.

The NHS is very sadly being picked apart by this current government. Just as they are picking apart social services, education, training and council-run services such as libraries, nurseries, police and many of things that are of great value to us ordinary citizens.

People who come from outside of the UK to work in the NHS, agriculture, education, construction and the hospitality industries have experienced a major setback since the referendum. The money they saved in sterling has now lost 20% of its value. On top of that, they are now being paid 20% less than they were when you compare it to the Euro.

The arrival and departure figures already show that people are leaving the UK and going to other parts of Europe to work. It makes sense. Why come to the UK and earn less than you would earn in Holland, Germany, France and Spain etc and why would you come to work in the UK when you are not welcome.

The soft fruit and vegetable picking industries are already making their own decisions. And rather than having to struggle to survive in the UK because of the lack of workers they are moving production to Poland, Germany, Bulgaria and Romania. The land is cheap, workers are plentiful, the currency is stable and they can then export to the UK.

The saddest part of your response is your reference to the lying media. Trump started this thread to try and give credibility to his bizarre tweets. The latest is of course that Obama hacked his phone.

But I digress. In the UK we are lucky to have a media industry that includes extremes such Russia Today, The Daily Mail, The Guardian, The Times, The Telegraph, The Mirror plus of course the BBC, Sky, ITV and then we have Facebook, Twitter and here we are on Silver Surfers.

They all report things in different ways and often the views are diametrically opposed. So logically they cannot all be lying. It is up to us to chose what we agree with and what we believe.

Anyway, that is enough from me. I am off to walk the dog.
Lionel
25th Feb 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
Well, after a very short engagement catmadrid, you failed to make a single valid point, adequately demonstrated Mensa is not your intellectual home and, let's be truthful here, tried to deceive SS readers in that you live in Spain.

Catmadrid, before the referendum I had a nine week night by night engagement with a man who supported the Remain side. It didn't get nasty, nor did it resort to name calling. He's a clever and capable man. To this day I salute him.

Nine weeks, night by night, and yet neither of us resorted to name calling. Yet you, after less than an hour, resort to calling me out as a racist. Who's the failure?

Please allow me to point out here, in accusing me of such a heinous crime you have put me in the place in which I could sue you for slander, and, by the way, win.

But as my God has been so merciful to me so I must show mercy. Repeat this unfounded accusation and mercy will not be so forth coming.

I trust you understand, this is not a threat. When reasonable debate, which I have more than adequatetly demonstrated on SS over almost a year now may be conducted without such slander; conversation conducted between people of disparate opinions who disagree on a point and yet carry on with the conversation, and meet again elsewhere on SS to discuss other topics is possible, then why not you?

I understand your anger at the referendum result. It was not what you wanted. Yet, most of my life has not been what I would have wanted, But it is the life lived, for better or worse. The life lived.

Please do come back to SS in a better frame of mind - I would love to talk with you about other matters... but it's your call.
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
-5
Thanks for voting!
Lionel sounds a bit of a nerd
Lionel
24th Feb 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
Really, run out of words? Getting below the belt with insults. And you a member of MENSA?
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
-3
Thanks for voting!
No my daughter a former errasmus student from Durham University works in Madrid as a ctizen of dare I say it the EU one of many.
We will move to Spain because of Brexit on our Irish passports Ha ha leave you all behind
Besos
Catherine
Lionel
24th Feb 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
Please do go to Spain, or stay here, but if you stay be prepared for great change. Go to bankrupt Spain if you wish, it really is of no moment to me.

Perhaps if you looked up Erasmus in a theological tome you'd see. he was a spiritual tyrant.

Good evening!
Lionel
24th Feb 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
So, Catmadrid67 gives the impression, by a less than deft use of words, she lives in Spain but has now admitted, being on the back foot, she lives in Sheffield.

Mmmm. Sheffield is a long way from Madrid, isn't it. Or did I misread a map?
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
-1
Thanks for voting!
I am sick of people saying the baby boomers voted us out . My husband and myself voted remain and im not a remoaner just a lady with a decent intellect that could see the damage coming our way and the lack of choice for young people. God forbid our parents and grandparents voted not to go in 40 years ago.There would have been no opportunities for us to work and lve abroad. No erasmus for students to sample universitiesabroad.My daughter lives and works in Spain teaching,her friend is an Erasmus baby. Her mum and dad met when her german dad came to university here.
What a narrow future for the younger generations
thefilthycripple
24th Feb 2017
2
Thanks for voting!
As a humble member of MENSA I obviously bow to you and your family's intellectual superiority . However may I respectfully suggest you consult your Erasmus dictionary the meaning of the word democracy . We have only been in the EU for a little over 40 years and as a country we were never inward looking ,I prefer the Winston Churchill model of a united Europe with a Franco German axis with us in our unique place in history
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
-3
Thanks for voting!
Missed opportunities for generations to come I am also a member of MENSA
Lionel
24th Feb 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
Short sighted rubbish from one who doesn't even live in the UK.

The Remain camp lost the argument through lies and pure deceit. The fact is they were and are the architects of their own misfortune and the British people's good fortunes.

We were taken into the EU through a web of lies and deceit, the '75 referendum was a set of lies, and the EU is foundations are in lies, deceit and more lies.

Kittle wonder we who live here wanted out!

By the way, the referendum was in June. we're on our way out of the EU, oh praise God!
Lionel
24th Feb 2017
2
Thanks for voting!
Missed opportunities to be further deceived and dragged blind folded into a police state only to wake up and find they're prisoners.

Much better off out!
Lionel
24th Feb 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
As I do, well said.
Lionel
24th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
A narrow furure for your kids? No. The EU is an horible protectionist zone stifling innovation and research. It has been sucking the life blood out of Britain forrty years, taking our fishing grounds, our money, and progressively diminishing our industry. Dare I mention the massive amounts of largely unwelcome unskilled immigrants? No of course not.

We are the first nation to break free from this despicable cadre of power hungry politicians. There remain in the wings sixteen others, at the last count.

If you think our young people's future has been diminished, just wait a while, until the UK booms again, which it is doing already.

Then, it may be a case of, well, do we want ex-pats to return? They ran away while we fought the battle. Collabos.
thefilthycripple
24th Feb 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
Well said Lionel ,last night Michael Portillo did an excellent analysis of the EU ,saying that Germany had put itself in a privileged position with an undervalued currency making their economy so much stronger ,by definition all the other EU countries have over valued currencies ,he paraphrased his analysis ,by describing it as -a " German scam "
Lionel
24th Feb 2017
2
Thanks for voting!
Well said Cripple, and my respects to you. So now we transcend the rhetoric of claims of the Fourth Reich, the scaremongering and gross over statements. We are speaking of a self evident reality.

Germany was, is and always will be at the heart of, and the chief beneficiary of the EU. There's so many documents online to substantiate this. Many go back to just pre-war days.

Many years ago, summer 1995 I think, the Mail on Sunday Magazine, it was paper then, ran a multi page spread article about Hitler's vision for a united Europe, well, united under his Reich. The journalist then projected five, ten fifteen and twenty years ahead.

What Europe has become, and what our part in it has become, was so accurately described. In a word, or two, utterly diminished.

Being a rather back foot man, I'm not a part of this Fourth Reich rhetroic. No, I stand off an observe rather than jump to conclusions. But I may only say tonight, we had better get out a bit more quickly than at present, because that fan is going to get sticky
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
-2
Thanks for voting!
I actually live in Sheffield City of Sanctuary
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
-3
Thanks for voting!
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
My daughter lives and works in Madrid we are in Sheffield but will move to Spain in the next 2 years with our Irish passports leaving the ship that like Titanic called England is a sinking ship ha ha
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
-2
Thanks for voting!
Lionel
24th Feb 2017
2
Thanks for voting!
Why not go now? Your opinions seem to me like those of a Quisling - he wanted a German victory of the UK.

Having lived in the Irish Republic I know too well just how many Irish people were pro Nazi. But it did them no good whatsoever. Until the Germans returned in the form of the EU is was peasant country - I know, I lived there.
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
-3
Thanks for voting!
ha ha see you later
Lionel
24th Feb 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
Ah, the last resort of the intellectually destitute. Name calling.

Racist, xenophobic, yes, I've read them all on SS and on the odd occasion I delve into the gutter red top press.

If you were tru;y a Mensa member, your language would be moderated by your intellect.
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
-4
Thanks for voting!
short sighted person pity on youi
Yodama
26th Feb 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
I wonder catmadrid67, where oh where did you buy that wonderful crystal ball of yours?
Where oh where did you train to be such a perspicacious psychic, able to foretell the future and outcome of England (hmm thought it was United Kingdom ) with such accuracy? ( Your training in Mensa and your added capabilities should afford you an advisory position in our government)

I believe the Titanic sunk when it hit an iceberg caused by: quoting here: Captain, E. J. Smith, who was condemned for racing at 22 knots through a known ice field in the dark waters off the coast of Newfoundland, destroying nearly all aboard.

In other words, we the Titanic as you so succinctly put it are headed for yet another iceberg which will result in yet another catastrophe.
The EU is that very iceberg, British passengers led by no other than Captain at the helm, Sir Edward Heath.
The British people who have their early warning systems on high alert are voting to steer a path to avoid another catastrophic collision.
I hope your jumping ship with all the rats will end well, maybe left drifting on yet another iceberg?
Great Britain once, Great Britain once again.
Wilf
28th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
Sorry but I thought I would join in. The UK is the worlds 5th largest economy and yesterday the IMF said the leading economies in the world for the future were USA, China, Germany and UK joint. So much for a sinking ship????
Wilf
28th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
Got to say you do not write or sound like a Mensa member. I am and I should know!
Sunbird73
15th Feb 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
17 million people want out so why do we need the delay Parliament is supposed to act on the will of the majority, if they don,t what was the point of the referendum. Let's get on with it Article 50 should have been generated immediately
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
-1
Thanks for voting!
Lionel
24th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
Dare you to come back to the UK and spout that in the media.
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
I live in Sheffield city of sanctuary,believe in free movement of labour. Our hospitals would not survive without it. If you need treatment and it isn't a white English person you may die
Lionel
24th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
On the back foot are we? I know Sheffield passably well. That's a long way from Madrid.

So now, to boost your case you resort to the NHS.

Oh dear, British education standards ... apalling.

Now there a handle for you ...
Sandy0014
14th Feb 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
Article 50 should be activated immediately if we have a democratic government interested in the country.
When one leaves the golf club you stop paying membership.
This negotiation is a good example why we need to be out. The negotiation will be the hardest this country has faced in many years
To see that the terms of exit are not a sell out the people need to accept the terms by some means. Hope fully not the cost of a referendum, my be an electronic poll.
CaroleR1
14th Feb 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
Parliament were just not ready for the Exit vote!
The Referendum was held without proper pre-parathion for the outcome. Now the people have
spoken, so they should be getting on with the job in hand, cut out the tacts!!!
Proudpatti
11th Feb 2017
2
Thanks for voting!
There's no point in having a public vote,if they're going to ignore it and vote themselves..We got on fine before we went into a EU market,we'll be fine again..
bernieo
10th Feb 2017
-1
Thanks for voting!
The referendum was advisory. The Brexiteers wanted Parliamentary democracy, and now they want to ditch it !!
The EU has always been democratic which is why we have MEPs.....including one 'Farage'. Good at taking his money and for what else?
Lionel
13th Feb 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
Educatshun, educatshun and more educatshun! Should get some in.
HEAPUS
10th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
We ,the people have already voted ,Parliament had better not try to thwart our desire to get out of the failing EU
Margaret Hart
10th Feb 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
We have had a referendum in which the people voted by a majority to leave Europe and that should be enough for the Parliament who were also voted in by the people.
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
-1
Thanks for voting!
hope you don't need medical care
Cactus14
8th Feb 2017
2
Thanks for voting!
The public voted out but the politicians never thought theY would. what part of Britain voted to leave the EU. don't they understand, for once just do what the public voted for.
Speeednet
6th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
No, the people have spoken. The only pain caused by change is resistance to it, and it appears to me that the remoaners would rather the country fail and bomb rather than admit the were wrong.
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
I voted to remain and object to been called a remoaner I would call you blinkered
Speeednet
28th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
Like I care what you think. You have obviously bought into all the rubbish that Osborne and his doom and gloom merchants were peddling. Think for yourself, don't you wonder why these people want to stay in? It is all down to self interest of those that have their snouts in the trough the deepest and nothing whatsoever to do with what is best for the country.
Jenninora
2nd Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
Flying fingers there. I must say. I should have said that ' I will accept something constructive and beneficial for me. '
[deleted]
1st Feb 2017
2
Thanks for voting!
Lionel
1st Feb 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
Your last three sentences sum up very well my understanding of this country.
Jenninora
2nd Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
Well said Scandiman. As we are of an age, and seen massive changes in how life is lived, I have scratched my head in wonder and amazement at nonsense and folks change of tack. Much is on a whim, brought on by a mirade of reasons. Commercial, Authority and selfishness. I have little time for something that has become grotesque and colouring our picture of life now and what it might become. Saying that I listen and make my judgement, and if I have thought it though I will not accept something as constructive and beneficial for me. I will speak out and complain. Change is ongoing and now we wait and see if real good comes through. We are all human and linked. Let us have faith and justice in the correct way of dealing with the affairs within our countries own domain and in our own individual lives. Remember and draw on some better values.Reach inside ourselves for right, whatever that maybe.
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
nagonthenet
31st Jan 2017
2
Thanks for voting!
The people have spoken in the referendum - that's it. If the House votes against the people I suggest a revolution
Lionel
1st Feb 2017
2
Thanks for voting!
A revolution may yet happen. But I so hope not.
Wilf
1st Feb 2017
2
Thanks for voting!
I cannot see it Lionel especially as the Brexiteers won so soundly. I am very glad about this as if it had been a vistory for the stay team there would have been a lot of trouble . We now just need to get on with it!
Lionel
1st Feb 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
Wilf, if we hear only the media then we may well be gulled into a false sense of security. Well, it is their job afterall.

I'm an East Anglian, a Norfolk man by birth. There remains to me many pals from all over these Eastern Counties. All is not peaceable and well in these areas. The East is a powder keg just waiting for the torch. There is a strong sense of ... we will take what is ours by force if necessary. And very many are ready.

I lived in North Yorkshire for many years as a farm worker. Still have pals there. The situation is the same. Explosive.

Wilf, I say this with the heaviest of hearts. Civil war is almost upon us. A racial war. Allow me to say, please, I have no part in this yet I can understand. Empathise? I don't this night know.

But I know this from countless contacts in East Anglia. Theresa May had better get it right first time and satisfy the Brits or war will break out.

I'll say no more here. You get the flavour. All is far from well. On the online press I have for so long counselled against rebellion, several years, but the tumult is rising. Westminster refuses to hear the legitimate concerns of the people. Maybe the end is already written.
Wilf
2nd Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
Lionel the people wanted Brexit and thats whats happening. Why would they revolt? besides the Brits have not revolted for 350 years! Bit late to start now thats for other more excitable nations!
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
narrow margin,had the remain vote won on these margins Nigel would have asked for a re run
sb
30th Jan 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
if anyone has any doubts about it being a good thing to leave the EU,they have never worked for the NHS,or in schools or for the police.
I would like to use our local town centre again without feeling irritated.
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
Ann4358
28th Jan 2017
3
Thanks for voting!
The country voted with a very large majority to leave the EU - there is no real reason to question this vote. We should now proceed with Article 50. I totally agree with scandiman in his/her views.
bernieo
10th Feb 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
A very large majority !! Where are you living?? Fewer than a third voted for it. All those living overseas couldn't vote ...16 - 18 year olds (who are the FUTURE) couldn't vote and the whole thing was simply advisory!!! Crazy,...as we shall all find out!
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
not 80% to 20% so not large as I mentioned earlier Nigel had he lost on the margin we have would have asked for a re run
anne33
28th Jan 2017
5
Thanks for voting!
I believe that if the constituency voted to leave and the standing MP is against the majority vote he should stand down. At the end of the day he is there to represent us and our views not his own views.
Lionel
28th Jan 2017
2
Thanks for voting!
Well said Anne. That would drain a load out of the swamp.
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
Grey lady 13
28th Jan 2017
6
Thanks for voting!
We can't keep having referendums until the result is as they want it. We voted out, it was a public vote, and should be honoured.
unclehefty
27th Jan 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
Without shadow of a doubt - I am a Brexit voter but believe that the decision is too large to be left to the cabinet. And, what is more it ought to be a free vote, with no whips, bribes or pressure - except from MPs' constituencies.
Lionel
27th Jan 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
Absolutely! But there doesn't need to be a vote at all. The Law Lords were asked to adjudicate on a political matter which is not their remit. The limit for the Law Lords is matters constitutional. Anything else breaches the gulf betwen the judiciary and the executive/Parliament. Once the Law Lords step into political matters were have lost this nation. Standby, they've crossed the boundary'

At this rate it will be government by the Law Lords. Oh, may God have mercy on us!
unclehefty
27th Jan 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
I agree Lionel in terms of should we proceed with Article 50, what I was talking about was the outcome of it. There is a need for all of us to understand and either agree with or reject the terms of the eventual agreement. That doesn't mean I want another referendum - but I do want those who represent (sic) us to be able to put our views. This latter statement might men that MPs have to communicate with the 70,000 or so people who make up their constituency on the exact make up of the 'deal'. If I am honest I have lost 95% of any trust I had for Government and many of the Members of Parliament (although there are quite a few who I believe speak volumes) and thereby Parliament needs to ensure that the deal Mrs May and her 3 Brexiteers bring a good deal (not akin to 'Dave's' ) back for us to look at before we 'vote' on it.
Lionel
27th Jan 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
I agree with you completely in that sense. There must be a check on the deal we are being sold. In the past our M.P.'s have voted all sorts of rubbish through on the nod. They've sold us down the river. Like you I don't trust them at all. Too much self interest. Once spent two hours with our M.P. for this region, and when we came out and walking down the road my dear wife asked me, 'what did he say?' I could only reply, 'I dunno.' Politico speak.

Yes, I want to know the detail of the final deal, I want it published and the right of reply, which could well be a referendum. Such is our distrust of the political establishment.

I also want to be able to hammer out the detail here on SS, with people of a similar age, if not experience. I'm open to have my opinion changed, but it had better be a good argument.
Littlegpd
30th Jan 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
If as you say you have lost 95% trust in our parliament what's the alternative - A Dictator some people in the remain camp simply do not understand democracy Nicola Stergen being number one, does she think she can dictate to us all, l believe she wants s to be Queen of Scotland.
GrannyJack
27th Jan 2017
2
Thanks for voting!
52% of the population voted to leave to me that is a majority if the people who didn't vote don't like the outcome they should have done something about it at the time. Let's get out and make our country Great again .
Lionel
27th Jan 2017
3
Thanks for voting!
Exactly. Nothing has been great or superlative since joining the EU, just a mish-mash of laws, regulations and more 'can't do that,' because we're in the EU.

Let's get out, very quickly, and prosper in a world economy. It can be done. Better, we can do it!
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
A lot of people who matter and whose future it is were not allowed to vote. I think some people over a certain age are set in their ways. What about the young folk ie 16-18 year olds it is their future the old ones have spoilt. I am 70 this year and am proud to be a remain voter.
I also can have an Irish passport from my fathers birthplace so as one member of my family my only daughter works and lives in Madrid we will go to live in Spain and enjoy our lives away from the sinking UK.
marlyn
27th Jan 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
Not sure the decision was right to leave. There seems to be so many points brought up since the vote that I feel should have been said before. As Robcar the vote was only 52% for.
Littlegpd
30th Jan 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
Only 52% you say do you understand maths 52% is a majority of 100%
Seccy
31st Jan 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
Little gpd, and if we leave the Common Market it will be the cities that voted for Brexit and who export most to it who will suffer most.
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
there were also non voters,people who couldnt vote so it is not clear cut as I said earlier Nigel would have gone on the rampage if the boot had been on the other foot he would have demanded a re run
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
yes people cant see whats coming
Hold51
27th Jan 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
we elect politicians to get the best deals for their constituents that will include the 48% who didnt want Brexit, so we need some checks and balances on Theresa May, David and Boris
Lionel
27th Jan 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
stevedore
27th Jan 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
As per Lynsey I agree completely with her comments
Lynsey
27th Jan 2017
5
Thanks for voting!
We are a democratic country and the vote was sanctioned by parliament. Whatever individual views the vote was lawful and binding on all sides . Let's stop causing divisions and accept the result and move forward . Who knows it could be brilliant!!!
Lionel
27th Jan 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
It will be brilliant!

The likes of the Cleglet and many others just show us how immature they are. We true Brits, of which he is not one, are not bad losers.

They cause divisions because they lost the vote. Oh, dear, have a good cry baby, I'll make it right for you! No. The referendum vote was full and final. We're out, and already late in being so.

Well said Lynsey, I'm with you all the way.
Littlegpd
30th Jan 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
Lionel
30th Jan 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
Lovely to hear from you Littlegpd. It's comforting someone agrees with me. Common sense will prevail - one day!
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
I will read your comments from Spain
Lionel
24th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
lindaphillips16
27th Jan 2017
3
Thanks for voting!
The vote went to the people, the people decided...end of story . To go against the wishes of the majority is a crime against democracy
Lionel
27th Jan 2017
2
Thanks for voting!
Linda, the repercussions of a revolt against democracy is unthinkable - civil war at best, but that will quickly deteriorate in to racial conflicts.

I don't think these remaimers like Millar know quite what they're doing. It won't be their bloodshed, but ours.

I quote you: 'The vote went to the people, the people decided ... end of story. Exactly.
Littlegpd
30th Jan 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
I agree. Don't the remain group realise the EU said no reversing the vote they accept the verdict so why can't these immature remainer's
Lionel
30th Jan 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
Littlegpd, whether we voted in or out the result was out, by a margin of three million votes. That's not an insignificant number.

You're quite correct, there's no way to reverse the result, so we're out! If these rather juvenile minds can't accept the reality of living in a very harsh and difficult world, a world where one's opinions may be out voted or shot down, then please, display one last grace. Go live in another country. May I suggest N. Korea. I'm sure Kim whatever will treasure your opinions.
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
Pity there were so many ill informed and blinkered
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
I am not juvenile I am a well educated woman in her seventieth year who was brought up in the inner city in abject poverty in 1947
Robcar
27th Jan 2017
-9
Thanks for voting!
This is not something we can change our minds over in 4 or 5 years time, this is a lifetime decision that affects not just you but our children and grandchildren, they are the ones who will have lost all that Europe offers them.
There should never have been a referendum in the first place. The Government have the right and duty to decide what is in the best interests of the country, otherwise, what shall we have a referendum on next? Public Hangings, driving on the left or right, at what age should people stop driving? It's crazy!
Oh...and please don't keep saying 'the country' - 52% only represents just over half 'the country'.
Lionel
27th Jan 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
I guess you'll see, so many SS people are either Pro-Brexit, or adult enough to accept the referendum result and not whinge.

So many remainers need to grow up, just a little more. Another step into maturity ... just one. It won't hurt, promise!

Remain lost! Leave has the vote!

Oh, and by the way, you're wrong! 52% doesn't represent just over half the country. It is 52% of those who could get off their butts and be bothered to vote.

You wouldn't be a remainer by any chance, would you?
Littlegpd
30th Jan 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
Grow up you lost l voted to go in 1973 it was said it was a mistake then sad it took over 40 years to realise.
Lionel
30th Jan 2017
1
Thanks for voting!
If what I observe of so many young people characterises much of their generation (not all are in this category) then it is as well we decided for them because if the decision wasn't liked on Facebook, then they'll be against it.

It's worth noting, statistically, few people under thirty five bothered to vote in the Referendum, yet they know how to cry foul when their Facebook side lost!

We're OUT. Embrace it, love it, just as we leavers would need to embrace Europe if the vote had gone the other way!
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
Well said ,we vote in a Government and it is their and only their responsibility to carry out governing. The people gave them that remit when they went to the polls. The referendum should have been dead in the water
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
You will rue the day bremoaner
Lionel
24th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
I'll take my chance in life, as always I have done.

Your insults are well received, but I trust you'll receive by comments in the same vein.
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
Thanks for voting!
I voted remain I am not a bremoaner you are ignorant free speech
lizfid3
27th Jan 2017
4
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The ordinary people of this land have had their say so why can't the people who lost stop sticking obstacles in the way to try and turn it around. David Cameron was arrogant enough to hold the referendum believing he could not lose. He and his cronies did, the people have spoken, no more votes necessary. Get on with it and do the best for our country. Stop log jamming the system with petty whingeing and loud mouthed arrogance. Get your heads down and get on with looking after the people for a change instead of trampling them underfoot and treating them with total disdain, the reasons the vote went the way it did in the first place.
[deleted]
27th Jan 2017
5
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Barton babe
27th Jan 2017
1
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Ted Heath took us into the ''Common Market''
with out a referendum in 1973. We did have a referendum two years later in 1975.
At that time we were told it would cost thousands of pounds to leave. We should have left then as it has cost us much more now.
Barton babe
27th Jan 2017
1
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Harriet Harman is now a back bencher I believe.
Lionel
27th Jan 2017
1
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Harriet Harman? Ah, now there's a tale to be told.

According to the Mailonline yesterday, she's complaining because a tutor at York University - actually it is a Polytech renamed - offered her out to improve her grades. He offered her a 2:1 if she spent some bed time with him. Read what's not written, but perhaps implied - if she didn't bed him she was a hopeless student!

About five years ago Harman was involvd in some controvery or other - probably feminist related. On the comment boards of the Mailonline a poster wrote: 'I'd need to be on drugs before she made any sense.' A respondent replied, ' I am on drugs, and still she doesn't make sense.'

May not say everything, but says a lot.
Andy Palz
25th Jan 2017
12
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The country has made the decision. Parliament can rubber-stamp the triggering of s. 50

They have a role to play in ensuring that we get the best deal for Britain but NOT in obstructing the process for obstructions's sake.
Lionel
25th Jan 2017
6
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Perfectly put Andy. And, in my opinion, perfectly correct.
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
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Ha Ha lets look at it 5 years down the line we will be like Rumania
mrp
25th Jan 2017
9
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Have I just woken from a coma and the country has been overthrown by the mob?
I believe we still live in a democracy and every voter is entitled to their say whether they voted remain or leave. Parliament is the final arbiter not the mob. Our elected MPs have a duty to represent the views of all of us. Very disturbing how this country has been ripped apart and apparently there are no rights for the rest of us to challenge what deal is negotiated. These negotiations will shape this count
mrp
25th Jan 2017
3
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I will finish what I was saying.
The deal which will be struck with the EU will shape this country for the foreseeable future and will effect our children and grandchildren. As parents we have a responsibility to
mrp
25th Jan 2017
4
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We all have a responsibility to ensure the best possible future for them. I don't believe that kicking out Johnny foreigner and isolating this country is the future they deserve. Anyone who thinks that hard Brexit will no
mrp
25th Jan 2017
3
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Anyone who thinks hard Brexit will not have serious repercussions for the vast majority of us is seriously deluded.
By the way I will not bother reading all the abusive and indignant responses ,we still live in a democracy and my opinion is just as valid as anyone else's. Now please just bluster away about how " the people have spoken" If we still live in a democracy all voices should be heard , especially if we truly care about the future being shaped by an unelected PM and the idiots pulling her strings for their own gains irrespective of the damage that will befall future generations in this country
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
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Its the young people I worry about lost opportunities
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
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Particularly when Johnny foreigner is the doctor,dentist ,nurse,consultant #pharmacist someone you need. Researcher etc its not just manual and craft. May I remind you Sir Mo Farah was a child refugee, from Somalia.Jess Ennis is mixed race. The royal family too have a greek consort,german descendants etc. For gods sake who is truly British
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
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[deleted]
25th Jan 2017
7
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catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
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I voted remain my vote counts
ecarg
25th Jan 2017
0
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Presumably MP's voted at the same time as the rest of us .now they get the chance to change there minds if they think it will help them keep their seat.
Lionel
24th Jan 2017
1
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We're now in uncharted waters with vicious currents swirling about us. Having read the comment boards in our online press today, this was a bad move to hand the last word to M.P.s, so many people see them as self serving traitors.

There is a strong undertow in comments, and some said outright, preparations have been made for a revolt against parliamentary and Judicial authority if the Law Lords betrayed us, as some will see it. I feel this night, if our M.P.'s vote against Brexit, for whatever reason, then trouble is upon us.

The nation is in a volatile state, not trusting the traditional organs of State and governance.

On the evening of Jue 23rd 2016 I wrote on SS I didn't fear the referendum result, but I most surely feared the peace afterwards. It has come to pass.
Margaret Hart
24th Jan 2017
4
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The only person has won anything in this farce is the woman who took it to Court. All the people in this country had taken part in the referendum which resulted in a majority of people voting to leave the European Market but it seems 1woman with a tremendous amount of money could get that overturned by non elected Judges. We have been treated like a police state.

I expect she had her vote in the referendum like the rest of us but we didn't have a say in the Court Case. Does this mean that every decision made by parliament can be changed by taking the matter to Court if we can afford the Barristers.
Lionel
24th Jan 2017
1
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Yes, Margaret, the precedent has now been set, More or less any decision of Parliament may now be challenged in the so called Supreme Court if one has sufficicient funds or wealthy backers.

And yes again, if a certainvery small minority of our nation is not put back in it's box and quickly, then it will likely be a Police State.
nape
24th Jan 2017
1
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if parliament have to have a vote then we are in the E U illegal as the people voted to go in
Lionel
24th Jan 2017
2
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No, nape, we did not vote to go into the EU. Our elected representatives, M.p.'s chose to believe a lie in 1972 and whilst telling the people it was merely a trading arrangement, beneficial to us, voted to jojn the Common Market. Few politicians at that time knew what the Common Market would become.
nape
9th Feb 2017
0
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yes lional we did have a vote on it and I for one voted to go in at that time but knew Its not what we were led to believe
Lionel
9th Feb 2017
0
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nape, we did not have a vote to join the Common Market. That came three years later when Wilson offered a referendum on whether we should stay in the Common Market.

Like all politicians he played two hands of cards at the same time, bluffing and lying throughout.

I believe that is what you and I voted in.
nape
24th Jan 2017
3
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if we have respect for thoes who fought for this country then we should control this country ourselves and not give it away M E PS only think of their selves
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
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The union was formed out of fear of war after 2nd world war
mrswoman
24th Jan 2017
5
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Parliament must have the debate and vote before Article 50 is invoked - that is the correct constitutional procedure and it was in place before the referendum. I do believe that we were all very ill informed of all the details of process when the referendum was called. There is nothing undemocratic in this happening - it has been triggered by a democratic vote. Our elected MPs are going to be the ones to have this debate, and if any constituents are worried about anything they can contact their MP - that's democracy!!
Lionel
24th Jan 2017
0
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No it is not the correct constitutional procedure in this matter. Since there is no set precedent for this kind of referendum then there is no procedure.

As said in my piece below, Cameron and his government told us, in writing, Article 50 would be invoked precisely after a Leave vote. He bottled out. But, he wrote and spoke on behalf of his Party, which a little while later elected May to succeed him. She therefore inherits his lagacy which is; Article 50 should have been invoked hours after a Leave vote. Nothing and no one else need to be involved, least of all a bunch of unelected Eurocrats sitting in the Supreme Court.
Lionel
24th Jan 2017
1
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No, today's events don't make a mockery of the Referendum. But they do show just how close is the cross-over point between our Judiciary and the Executive. Dangerously close when in Precedent the gulf between them must be maintained.

Surely the point here is that by allowing a political proceedure to be termed a constitutional matter and therefore the Law Lord's territory, we may be seeing the first signs of another government of unelected people over and above the Executive. Dangerous territory!

It's interesting to note, no Law Lords interfered when Brown signed off the Lisbon Treaty by a Royal Perogative, thereby changing British society and governance forever. But Article 50, whereby we begin to recover much of our traditional status, sends them into paroxysms. Would it be legitimate to question the impartiality of the Law Lords?

In respect of the Referendum Act 2015, nowhere in the text is the result made legally binding. However, in that glossy handout distributed to every household by the Cameron government it stated: “The referendum on Thursday 23rd June is your chance to decide if we should remain in the European Union.” It did not say “it is your chance to advise on whether we should remain, the actual decision being taken by Parliament.”

But it went on to be even clearer and more emphatic:“This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.”

23rd February 2016 Cameron said: "trigger article 50 of the treaties and begin the process of exit, and the British people would rightly expect that to start straight away.”

Whilst much of the above is not enacted into Law, being merely published statements of the Prime Minister, if such pronouncements may be ignored, are we passing into yet another constitutional minefield?

And finally. Have we discovered the Joker up Gina Miller's sleeve? Could it be argued in the Supreme Court that Cameron made undertakings to be fulfilled only by his government with him as Prime Minister? Therefore, in resigning on June 24th, he nullified the Referendum result and handed a clean slate to his successor who may chery pick as she wishes?

Could be interesting!
[deleted]
25th Jan 2017
2
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Lionel
25th Jan 2017
0
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Surely, scandiman, on Cameron's resignation the new Prime Minister was chosen from his party, and the same Parliament remains sitting. It seems logical to me that Parliament and the new Prime Minister must carry forward Cameron's work, at least until a General Election and a new Parliament sits.

But, maybe that's just too logical for expensive lawyers. It seems to me many legals made their fortunes by queering the pitch for others.
AmandaP1
24th Jan 2017
3
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Why did we bother wasting so much money on a referendum? Just a political stunt that went wrong!
jennys59
24th Jan 2017
3
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No they should not have a vote. The people voted 'OUT' so therefore we should leave. The decision is undemocratic. If 'Brexit' gets over ruled then we become a ruled country not a Democracy.
JohnHerb
24th Jan 2017
2
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You are 100% correct. If Parliament overturned this I think there would be a revolution. Think the last time that happened was in 1642 between Royalty and Parliament. I would be on the side of Her Majesty for sure.
JohnHerb
24th Jan 2017
4
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Well I do not think it will make much difference as apart from Clegg who is desperate to stay in the Eu so he can have a job in it most MPs who have any sense of decency will do the correct thing and vote to trigger article 50. How can they not as the people who elected them in the first place have voted that it should be so?
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
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Clegg is an excellent MP for my constituency
OAP67
24th Jan 2017
2
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No the Government should not have a vote! The people of this country were given a Referendum and the people voted out. We elect the MPs therefore they should stand by what the people have voted for! It's a case of looking after their own interests and in some cases jobs as MEPs. This goes equally for the judiciary.
JohnHerb
24th Jan 2017
4
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Agreed or what is the point of having a democracy if our votes effectively become null and void?
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
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A lot of people had an agenda and it was dare I say racist towards the muslim community. They were unaware that it meant French,Spanisg,German etc . They were gullible like all the money going to the health service
Jecw
24th Jan 2017
3
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The people HAVE decided
granny Annie
24th Jan 2017
2
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What was the point of the referendum if the Supreme Court can over rule our wishes, democracy, I don't think so. It's a disgrace
BirdofParadise
24th Jan 2017
5
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The people have already voted. Are they to be ignored again. What a farce!
Pete H
24th Jan 2017
5
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The government was ill advised and should never have appealed the decision - total waste of time and taxpayers money. It won't affect the outcome as we will still trigger article 50 by the end of March. Thankfully at least the SNP won't be able to block it as the devolved parliaments don't have to be consulted.
thefilthycripple
24th Jan 2017
4
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The people have decided nothing to do with Parliament particularly as so many MPs are ignoring the voters in their constituencies
Wilf
24th Jan 2017
3
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i totally agree with you. Its up to us and we elect the MPs anyway. The whole thing is total madness and a complete waste of money and time. We need to get on with it and thats from someone who voted to stay in!
catmadrid67
24th Feb 2017
0
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some of the people decided
Baxi
24th Jan 2017
2
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I believe in democracy.
Although I want to stay in the EU, I respect the majority vote and I believe that parliament represents the people's views.
We need certainty - every time there is a wobble it affects the economy negatively.
We need to move forward!
gavin123
24th Jan 2017
2
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We the people voted these members of parliment in we voted they should respect our desion and let the may get on with it
Wilf
24th Jan 2017
4
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This is a total outrage and I say that as someone who voted to stay in (just because it seemed a safer thing to do at the time). The British people were given the choice to stay in or go out of the EU. The BRITISH people voted to go out. Therefore we should go! I am not sure if its a good idea but this is called democracy. We have had it here for 1,000 years and this is what civilisation is about. What do the non brexiters want...vote after vote until there is a vote to stay in? Sorry this is a joke
lindaphillips16
27th Jan 2017
0
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Isn't that what happened in Ireland? Didn't they repeat and repeat until they got the answer they wanted?
Jo Kingham
24th Jan 2017
2
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The majority of people voted to leave the EU and I'm sure most want us just to get on with it. Surely they have to ratify it and hopefully in time so as not to delay proceedings. Let's move forward and support our PM in getting things underway.
Marley444
24th Jan 2017
2
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So am I being thick here? Were we all asked to vote and now our opinion is not valid so they are saying that Parliament has to make the final decision?????
awayday
27th Jan 2017
0
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The original vote was based on promises of what Brexit would deliver. Now there is time to negotiate lets see what the politicians actually can deliver and then we can all get behind the truth of the situation and remove the divisiveness that the vote has caused. At the moment we might as well split the country down the middle.

So let us have a vote a on what the actual deal offers.

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