Do you want another EU Referendum?
The Liberal Democrats say they are the only party that will give the people a chance to change Britain’s future by holding a referendum on the final Brexit deal with the option to remain in the European Union.
They say this will be the only opportunity for the British public to reject a ‘hard’ Brexit that means leaving the single market, ending freedom of movement and abandoning the customs union.
The party is making a direct pitch to the 48% of voters who backed remain but also calculates that it will also appeal to disappointed leave voters who never signed up for a hard Brexit.
What are your views? Would you like to have another referendum? Would you change the way your voted first time around?
What are your views?
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Before the referendum and ever since those with a vested interest and the poor frightened sheep, have tried to stop this happening.
I voted out and will never change my mind, however, if I had voted to remain then I Would have changed my mind.
Before the referendom we had nothing but threats from our EU 'partners'. that are still carrying on. With the remainers continually trying to subvert democracy they are just encouraging the other EU countries to try and frighten people to change their mind.
I expect those greedy specimens that are afraid they may lose a few quid, to whinge and whine, but surely ordinary people have the sense to see how our economy will benefit when allowed to trade with whoever we wish.
I can remember going into the so called 'common market' and how prices climbed sharply. Farmers for instance had to plow much of their produce into the ground to push up the price of food.
The possible costs to the UK both economically and socially of not being in EU membership are now starting to emerge. However negotiations have yet to start, and we have no idea of what sort of agreement we will get with the 27 other countries of the EU.
When we know what it will really mean to the UK by not being a member of the EU then surely we should follow the principles of democracy and let the voting public decide if we should leave or remain.
Wait for the Tsunami to come.
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Listening and watching the political journalists today, it seems that just like me, they have no idea what will happen.
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Tsunami warning signs include, high waves, sea level fluctuations and sea water receding from the normal shoreline. It leaves fish and other sea life exposed and dying. Birds and other land animals often rush to higher ground. The Tsunami arrives with a very large roar and changes everything it touches.
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Maybe what we are experiencing are the high waves and the sea water receding prior to the Tsunami arrival. Comparing our MP’s to fish and sea life seems appropriate.
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When we know the true cost of leaving the EU and we have accurate and logical information, what is the downside of asking us again. ?
To hold a second referendum would set a dangerous precedent. Thereafter an election result wouldn't be binding, no, it would be subject to a second and possibly third vote. The Poison Pixie north of the border is already threatening a third independence referendum if she doesn't get the result she wants. Multiple votes on the same subject is a typical EU tactic - refer Ireland over the Lisbon Treaty.
A majority decision prevails. No ifs, no buts, to quote a lame duck Tory Prime Minister. If Corbyn is our next Prime Minster I presume you would call for a second vote. But what would happen in your mind if he was returned with a bigger majority? Another General Election?
Rooftop, I'm well aware you schooled yourself in negotiating tactics; schooled yourself in getting your way. But in electoral terms the majority vote is final. The Referendum vote was out; numerically by quite a large margin. That's it.
During our long debate last year, which I loved, I don't believe I ever suggested there wouldn't be a cost to Brexit. Of course there will be a cost. We will pay that cost, along with our children, but our grand children will fly into a freedom you and I have not known.
As I look at my step grand children, whom I have raised, I know I voted for them.
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I know I am repeating myself, but when we know the true cost of leaving the EU and we have accurate and logical information, what is the downside of asking us again. ?
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It is now very obvious that many of the people who voted to leave believe that when the true costs of leaving the EU are known, then the majority of the UK would vote to stay.
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It may of course be possible that even knowing the true cost of leaving the EU the UK population would still vote to leave.
I object to being called a 'Remoaner'. It appears the playground name calling still exists ever when we are silver haired. As I have no grandchildren at least I know when I shove off this mortal coil I know I was not part of those people that screwed our country up. The young are angry at the older generation for selling them out and I for one agree with them.
Also to be said I am of German descent and object to the slur of 'Jackboot'....again the need to use racist slurs are just what you leavers believed.
No I will accept the slight misguided majority wishes and watch this fascist government screw us over without the safety net of unity with other nations.
Many years later those who remained in Poland and bred were ... I think you know what I mean.
I think with that very brief biography you may understand why the use of the term jackboot is offensive to me too. But for different reasons. And for those reasons I don't wish to see, won't see, jackboots on this English soil which gave my ancestors a refuge, and that before Benefits.
Nor do I wish my adopted country to be a part of a Europe utterly dominated by Germany. Poland knows about that situation as does another people with whom I have a family contact - Czech Republic.
Great Britain prospered greatly to become the greatest empire the world has ever seen, and that without the aid of Europe.
Further. I don't think the millions of war dead and maimed may be tossed away with 'that old chestnut.' Good turn of phrase in English but quite inappropriate useage. Says a lot.
Out means Out!
I studied EU politic at uni back in 1996-99 it was obviou then that it didn'r work with 15 countries involved how can you get 27 countries to agree with alll their financial and coultural differences. That's why it takes so long and cost so much for them to agree on anything.
I could give numerous examples but it would make pretty depressing reading.
Not once on the campaign trail did I see anyone from the Remain campaign out on the streets or knocking on doors putting forward their case to remain. I came across a remainer who asked me were the people from the remain campaign were & I said 'I don't know'. he went in doors & put up a Leave poster.
Now many argue that those who voted leave didn't know what they voted for, well sorry to disappoint most did & I was taken aback on the Polling Stations the number of people who turned to vote who had not either voted for years or not voted at all, this time they felt that there vote counted. Now we could argue that many who voted to stay didn't know what they voted for. Some of the comments I got when I asked those who wanted to remain & asked them why they replied with 'well we have always been in it' & I would say do you know what it means to be in the eu, to only be told 'no'.
And then those morons who went protesting 'shame on you', well I say this. its called DEMOCRACY & shame on them for not getting their vote out. And ask yourselves this, if the Leave campaign had lost & we went marching down the streets shouting 'shame on you' what would the remainers say? Well, the British people have spoken & it was a democratic vote. So, no we had our say the Leavers won & the remainers lost. End of story.
I personally can't see why it will take so long to leave....lets get on with it, many are making it all doom and gloom....and how on earth do we know whats going to happen anyway even if we stayed in!!
Nigel was the only one worth listening to and said it how it is. Bring him back
Yes, he was slagged off as a racist for talking about immigration, but what do you expect from a super PC population who follow the herd?
Nigel's perseverence broke the waters, so to speak, so we may a little more freely talk about immigration.
I am so thoroughly hacked off with this never-ending bickering, I'm not logging on to Silversurfers again. I'm retired and I just want some bloody peace for how ever many years lie in front of me. We voted Leave, we can't change that, so for pity's sake, get on with it.
But truth must be fought for, even if it is on SS, and I will pursue the right and shout down the wrong. Truth and justice must prevail or we are nothing better than a banana republic.
Care to carry on the battle with me?
The only difference between the two is MPs promise but don't follow through.
Do not be fooled into accepting so-called free trade deals that give large corporations power over the government with clauses that allow them to sue for a perceived loss in closed courts (TTIP) or to privatise the NHS under austerity measures resulting from the move. Can people really afford thousands of pounds to pay for care through medical insurance when existing conditions will be assessed as with travel insurance?
Here's a quote from the introduction in case you've forgotten: "HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF THE BELGIANS, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FRENCH REPUBLIC, THE PRESIDENT OF THE ITALIAN REPUBLIC, HER ROYAL HIGHNESS THE GRAND DUCHESS OF LUXEMBOURG, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE NETHERLANDS, DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever-closer union among the peoples of Europe, RESOLVED to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common action to eliminate the barriers which divide Europe, AFFIRMING as the essential objective of their efforts the constant improvement of the living and working conditions of their peoples, RECOGNISING that the removal of existing obstacles calls for concerted action in order to guarantee steady expansion, balanced trade and fair competition, ANXIOUS to strengthen the unity of their economies and to ensure their harmonious development by reducing the differences existing between the various regions and the backwardness of the less favoured regions, DESIRING to contribute, by means of a common commercial policy, to the progressive abolition of restrictions on international trade, INTENDING to confirm the solidarity which binds Europe and the overseas countries and desiring to ensure the development of their prosperity, in accordance with the principles of the Charter of the United Nations, RESOLVED by thus pooling their resources to preserve and strengthen peace and liberty, and calling upon the other peoples of Europe who share their ideal to join in their efforts, HAVE DECIDED to create a European Economic Community"
I've read the Koran, end to end three times. If you've read all the crepe coming out of Brussels then, of course, you're deluded.
How about trying to explain how Brexiters can claim that the EEC was just a common market, when the founding treaty says otherwise?
I think your present condition precludes any further contact until you've been cured.
Hey Ho!
Here's what you missed:
" The aims of the Common Market are:
To bring together the peoples of Europe.
To raise living standards and improve working conditions.
To promote growth and boost world trade.
To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world.
To help maintain peace and freedom."
Now how can you claim in all honesty that was just a common market?
You care to instruct this great British people, care to teach us, what we missed.
Sir, I missed nothing in the '75 referendum. I was then, and am now, well aware of what the Common Market would become. I read the Treaty of Rome in the British Library in London.
Here, may I point out, for your deepest consideration, all the points listed above have a'failed' notice beside them. No, not one has come right. Fail, in every sense.
So, I respectfully suggest, you take your salary from the EU and go away. Oh, and don't comment in the Independent, Telegraph or Times.
Your card is marked.
Facts is to get angry, threaten people and insult them. That's so mature isn't it?
And why are you getting on your high horse about a post that wasn't addressed to you? I think that if you look carefully at how you started your post you will see a reflection of yourself there.
Now kindly read my original post and how John herb responded to it, comprehend it and see what a pompous individual you look like.
PS I don't get a salary from the EU and have never been employed by it. Try not to reduce the whole world to stereotypes.
But, JohnHerb, I think there's at least one supoosedly male member on here who'll disagree. He's already into the personal hate stuff ... us good ole country lads, we give better than we get.
John Herb, it's been very wet here, have you got your veggies in yet?
Must be a comprehensive kid.
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The average person knew very little about Brexit before we voted in the Referendum and we have no idea where we will be after being mauled by the EU. We certainly won't be in a position to make an informed opinion as to what to vote for. We have no option but to trust that this government will do its best for us and if necessary - rather than be humiliated and made to grovel without reason to the EU - we must be prepared to walk away. None of this is to be confused with our home policies with which many disagree, but for the time being we have only one party capable of facing what is coming.
Rather damning!
I would appreciate your telling the forum exactly how you are privy to information that will ensure voting to stay in would have been the more intelligent thing to do.
World wars fought for freedom and etched into the brains of the "oldies" will have a decided impact simply because of the power the EU wields.
When we joined the EEC/EU, ( as you so rightly corrected me) we had no idea either.
We were always able to govern ourselves, we must return to that state.
The majority of people haven't voted for very many years. But of a sudden ... yes of a sudden, they are awake, alert and going forward into a battle for which they have no prior knowledge, no background and are actually totally igorant. Like our soldiers at Cressy, lives laid down without knowing why.
None of these people are privvy to special or secret information, it's just suuposition and hearsay. They are the fodder of politicians.
If I may be so bold as to offer a word of advice, just ignore them. They'll go away soon.
I voted Leave because when the vote was originally tooin the EEC, it was a trade organisation. No-one said anything about 'ever closer political union'. That was applied by stealth. The point about we Brits is that we don't like being dictated to, still less being taken for granted. The EU elite, who we didn't elect, have behaved in a dictatorial fashion. When we are pushed into a corner, we fight back. I object to people like Clegg etc always insisting they know best. At the time of the referendum, nothing was said about it being advisory, nor was this mentioned when we voted for EEC membership. The EU just got too big for its boots. By the way, I'm not a lemming, I'm perfectly capable of making my own mind up. I have never followed the herd.
David Cameron said publicly that if the Referendum vote was 'Leave,' then the very next day Article 51 would be invoked. The question is, would that statement be regarded as Law? Is a statement of intent from a sitting Prime Minister binding upon his unelected successor from the same party after his resignation?
Perhaps we should say the Law Lords should be sorting this one out rather ran running after Mrs. Miller!
Oh, and The Referendum result is binding in Law. Just read the text of the Bill.
And this is what the government pamphlet on the referendum in 1975 said, "The aims of the Common Market are:
To bring together the peoples of Europe.
To raise living standards and improve working conditions.
To promote growth and boost world trade.
To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world.
To help maintain peace and freedom."
http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm
Since then people are much better informed of the situation and the negative impact Brexit will have on Britain.
Given another chance to vote many would vote to stay in.
I you don't vote you've no right of complaint.
In a general election if it is a close result there isn't another one held because the losers don't like it!!
The result was Leave so Leave it is.
What part of parliamentary democracy do you not understand? Why do you think Gina Miller took the gov't to court?
Eh?
You, rather discourteously, ask what part of democracy I don't understand? I ask, what part of common polite intercourse you do not practice? Much it seems.
Allow me to inform you, if a sitting Prime Minister makes a verbal declaration both he and his government are utterly bound by that statement. That sits in precedent. Chamberlain's broadcast to Britain in 1939 telling us we were at war with Germany was full, complete, absolute and final. If you don't believe me read Churchill's History of the Second World War. I have! The following five years proved Chamberlain to be quite right. When when Cameron uttered those fateful words he announced a fact, not a pipe dream.
Thus, Oldhasbean, another Remainer case demonlished, the latest of quite a few.
Goodbye!
The Referendum Bill, I can't now remember the exact words, but it gave the strong sense the result would be decisively acted upon.
Advisory? No. The evidence militates against that view.
That's not democratic in my book.
But since yesterday, only 22 % off the population wish to remain in the EU, the entire historic argument is academic.
Do they want to keep having referendums till they get a different result?
See for yourself here:
http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm
."The aims of the Common Market are:
To bring together the peoples of Europe.
To raise living standards and improve working conditions.
To promote growth and boost world trade.
To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world.
To help maintain peace and freedom."
As for the LibDems I am astounded that people still vote for them after their collusion in the coalition - it will be interesting to see in the next General Election how they fare
In fact it is not old news, it is more no news as it is hardly mentioned in the media outside of Britain.
To fix our NHS so its working again as it should be and build or renovate our affordable housing stock. We need to put the UK first.
It's a pipe dream to believe that the money saved on the EU contribution (about 35 pence per day per UK resident) will make any meaningful difference to the NHS or housing.
PS. I'm not racist , I fully understand that we need immigration.
I doubt our MP has been near a pub. No, more like the local Conservative Club. 'A rather rare scotch, ole boy, have a dozen, makes one feel better about the riff raff.'
So many MPs are like Corbyn, just fine when addressing supporters but when it comes to ordinary people who don't agree they've nothing to say. I think that's why Theresa May walks all over Corbyn at PMQs.
The Liberals in power in 2048 ... I shall be a little shy of a centenarian. Maybe I'll still be a political onlooker and remember your words, I'd like to think so. If I've still got my marbles I'll certainly remember you for your common sense.
From this isolated part of Suffolk, the political pot is boiling. What it will produce ... I don't know, but I need my state pension.
You say with confidence "we now know more" more what, and how is it bad?
I have heard the opposite.
Maybe we pay too much attention to the arch propagandists, the media.
None of us can say with a certain degree of certainty what is going on behind closed doors, nor what political agenda is being played out.
The damage to Britain has been the incremental take over of our lands. We once stood proud as a nation, The EU has its own agenda and Britain does not have a say in the matter.
I am not giving up.
Well we know more because we know it is not very simple to leave. There will lots of bad things not just good things.
I am not going to list the bad things as many are the reverse side of the good things. Just one....immigrants from the EU, who is going to do all these low paid (minimum wage) jobs such as waiting on tables and sorting sizes of potatoes.
No political part are talking about the Brexit benefits. Have you heard ANYTHING recently about "the Brexit bounce" "the Brexit dividends" if you have let me know.
Why is it difficult, it is going to be very difficult and expensive. For example that there are two phases in the negotiations.
The divorce
The new relationship with the EU.
Do you even know what the agenda is for Phase 1) well the 27 does know the first three things on that agenda.
All to be done and dusted by March 2019
It's not easy pushing back against Brexit but we are walking towards a cliff and someone has to shout "the king has no cloths"
Nobody ever thought it would be a 'cake walk', without a doubt there will be severe repercussions.
Britain is going to have her ba**s in a vice without question.
If we look at the recent mayhem caused by porous borders in Germany and other countries, (Merkel is backtracking at speed, France is suffering attack after attack) it is essential we protect our own borders without interference...as we have always done without the EU.
Workers will be allowed in to fulfil jobs as always in the medical field, farming, waiters etc. there will be a selection process, not like now........ as we have always done without the EU.
This country was built on migrants, why should it be different now.
We cannot sustain the influx of migrants who do not contribute in some way.
Our new relationship with the EU will be like any divorce, either bitter or a decision to remain on speaking terms. The EU needs Britain, never forget that.
Phase 1 agenda, agendas change as negotiations change.
We were alone and thriving, a world power long before we joined the EU, why would we be walking over a cliff now?
It is up to the British people to support and stand behind the decision to divorce the controlling, unelected bullies who are the EU.
There are deeper and more important reasons for leaving the EU. Sizing potatoes is not one of them.
Get on with it!, Long drawn out divorces are ultimately more damaging and painful for all concerned. There will undoubtedly be winners and losers
Edward Heath took us into the EU on false pretences, nobody asked if we wanted a second vote then.
How many more times? No means no!
To bring together the peoples of Europe.
To raise living standards and improve working conditions.
To promote growth and boost world trade.
To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world.
To help maintain peace and freedom."
http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm
A lovely fairy story.
De Gaulle said an emphatic "Non" to Harold McMillan in 1963 when we wanted to join the EEC, it was only after De Gaulle resigned and Pompidou began to extend a friendly hand that ten years later we were "allowed" to join the club.
The idea that we were joining a free trade area was a con. We were required to play a strong role to counterbalance the Germans for the French and the same counterbalance for the Germans.
It was a political union and had little to do with free trade.
In a famous speech Heath promised:
There are some in this country who fear that in going into Europe we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified.”
Well that went well then. We have lost our sovereignty spectacularly.
The question remains, was it illegal and can we repeal the act?
The question on this forum is " Do you want another referendum?"
Simple - No!
The fishing industry:
As the United Nations Law of the Sea states: “The exclusive economic zone shall not extend beyond 200 nautical miles from the baselines”. Yet Britain’s fishing rights have now been reduced by the EU to a mere 12 miles.
Fish landings in Uk
1970 - 948, tonnes
2014 - 11,845 tonnes
We had 21,443 fishermen in Uk in 1970, today we have less than 11,500.
92% of fisherman voted to leave the EU.
Brexit would free us from red tape
France is the uks biggest export market for fish, are they suddenly going to stop buying from us?
We export to the US, Spain, Irish Republic, Italy, China, Netherlands, Germany, Nigeria, and more markets are opening up in Africa.
We would be able to free ourselves from setting ur own prices, our hands are tied now.
Pessimism could drown the industry, ships would have to queue in an Operation Stack to handle congestion due to mounds of paperwork
I quote:
Outside the EU, the UK would not be obliged to implement EU directives, and could negotiate derogations of acts or exemptions even if it wanted closer trade ties. Simon Dwyer, managing director at Seafox Management Consultants, based in Grimsby, says this is one of the most positive outcomes of Brexit. (sic)
End quote.
Greenland successfully negotiated favourable terms for their exit, and now enjoy favourable trade deals with the EU. If a nation of 57,000 can do it, why do we often hear that Britain, a nation of 65 million, cannot do the same?
ECHR/ EU
Deportation of hateful radical cleric Abu Abu Qatada Al-Filistini
Quote:
Article 17 of protocol 14 allows the European Union to become party to the Convention. In turn the Lisbon Treaty, which entered force in December 2009, provides that the European Union should accede and become a party to the Convention. The Committee of Ministers is to evaluate in 2012 to 2015 the extent to which the implementation of Protocol 14 has improved the effectiveness of the Court. The Committee of Ministers is to decide before 2019 whether more reforms of the Court are necessary.
End quote.
How far are you prepared to down this dark Rabbit Hole?
Walter Hallstein, IG Farben?
You do realise that the UK has a veto on important issues, so " they" whoever they are cannot force us to do anything.
You also don't seem to understand that directives don't force us to do anything: they set goals that are agreed by the member states who then choose how to implement them.
But the icing on the cake is complainng about decisions by the ECHR preventing deportation of"a hateful radical". The ECHR is not an EU institution. The UK was a prime mover in setting it up after the second world and before the EEC was invented.
So glad to know that you were fully informed before you voted /sarcasm
The EU is a tool of colonisation, each time they need to do something to infiltrate our laws and ways of life, they adopt a regulation or directive.
We have no say in many areas of our daily lives such as the demise of the fishing industry and the regulation of farmers.
We could not get rid of a hateful radical because of EU laws.
So how are we sovereign??
If we don't we will be nothing but yes men to this huge gorgon with many secretive heads.
My opinion of the EU has not changed. Indeed, seeing these last months of playground shenanigans which pass for politics I'd like to see this island towed a thousand miles west, and five hundred miles south, away from them all.
As far as another referendum is concerned, no! Today's online press reported a major poll showed just 22% of Brits wish to remain in the EU. Job done. If Theresa May and her team can't secure a good trade deal, then we bale out - hard Brexit.
That outcome doesn't require a referendum, just a positive vote from the Commons.
The LibDems - ah, the betrayers in chief of our students. My dear LibDems, the nation voted out of the EU. Job done. Hard Brexit, soft Brexit, whatever, it's going to hurt us all but only for a short while. Are we real Brits so scared of a little hardship? We've seen it all before!
Speakers corner, as you say, marathon posts. We are just re-hashing the same arguments.
The theme of this debate is whether we need another referendum, people are still living in denial.
Don't give up. You voted remain because you believed that was right.