Do you want another EU Referendum?

so you are surrendering our country to the germans who are the real masters of the EU leaving is about more than cost (money ) millions died for our freedom please accept the majority came out in favour stop thinking money look at greece france holland all under the jackboot britain having to keep hook and many others on benefits because we cannot deport we had the vote we cannot keep voting every year until it suits its done lets progress

Not that old chestnut, people died all over Europe and beyond....move on and stop looking at the wars but at the future. If this vote had been an educated vote with the truth being told and people knowing what they were voting for perhaps the vote would be different.
I object to being called a 'Remoaner'. It appears the playground name calling still exists ever when we are silver haired. As I have no grandchildren at least I know when I shove off this mortal coil I know I was not part of those people that screwed our country up. The young are angry at the older generation for selling them out and I for one agree with them.
Also to be said I am of German descent and object to the slur of 'Jackboot'....again the need to use racist slurs are just what you leavers believed.
No I will accept the slight misguided majority wishes and watch this fascist government screw us over without the safety net of unity with other nations.

My point is very basic. We are starting to see that leaving the EU will have very few benefits for the UK both socially and economically.
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When we know the true cost of leaving the EU and we have accurate and logical information, what is the downside of asking us again. ?

Well said Trudy. The word misguided is very accurate.

Rooftop. have you become one of those detestable remoaners? If you have then you've gone way down in my quite high estimation of you.

To hold a second referendum would set a dangerous precedent. Thereafter an election result wouldn't be binding, no, it would be subject to a second and possibly third vote. The Poison Pixie north of the border is already threatening a third independence referendum if she doesn't get the result she wants. Multiple votes on the same subject is a typical EU tactic - refer Ireland over the Lisbon Treaty.

A majority decision prevails. No ifs, no buts, to quote a lame duck Tory Prime Minister. If Corbyn is our next Prime Minster I presume you would call for a second vote. But what would happen in your mind if he was returned with a bigger majority? Another General Election?

Rooftop, I'm well aware you schooled yourself in negotiating tactics; schooled yourself in getting your way. But in electoral terms the majority vote is final. The Referendum vote was out; numerically by quite a large margin. That's it.

During our long debate last year, which I loved, I don't believe I ever suggested there wouldn't be a cost to Brexit. Of course there will be a cost. We will pay that cost, along with our children, but our grand children will fly into a freedom you and I have not known.

As I look at my step grand children, whom I have raised, I know I voted for them.

Trudi, I am of Polish Jewish descent. Well over a hundred years ago my family left Poland because of a pogrom in which our little Schtetle community was all but anhilated. Very few of my family escaped.

Many years later those who remained in Poland and bred were ... I think you know what I mean.

I think with that very brief biography you may understand why the use of the term jackboot is offensive to me too. But for different reasons. And for those reasons I don't wish to see, won't see, jackboots on this English soil which gave my ancestors a refuge, and that before Benefits.

Nor do I wish my adopted country to be a part of a Europe utterly dominated by Germany. Poland knows about that situation as does another people with whom I have a family contact - Czech Republic.

Great Britain prospered greatly to become the greatest empire the world has ever seen, and that without the aid of Europe.

Further. I don't think the millions of war dead and maimed may be tossed away with 'that old chestnut.' Good turn of phrase in English but quite inappropriate useage. Says a lot.

There is no such thing as a final election. In our democratic society we regularly vote. We cast our votes based on the past performance of the sitting government, and what we want for the future.
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I know I am repeating myself, but when we know the true cost of leaving the EU and we have accurate and logical information, what is the downside of asking us again. ?
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It is now very obvious that many of the people who voted to leave believe that when the true costs of leaving the EU are known, then the majority of the UK would vote to stay.
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It may of course be possible that even knowing the true cost of leaving the EU the UK population would still vote to leave.

Waves high enough in your stormy seas RTC?
Wait for the Tsunami to come.

Just like millions of other voters I watched this Conservative debacle with amazement.
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Listening and watching the political journalists today, it seems that just like me, they have no idea what will happen.
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Tsunami warning signs include, high waves, sea level fluctuations and sea water receding from the normal shoreline. It leaves fish and other sea life exposed and dying. Birds and other land animals often rush to higher ground. The Tsunami arrives with a very large roar and changes everything it touches.
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Maybe what we are experiencing are the high waves and the sea water receding prior to the Tsunami arrival. Comparing our MP’s to fish and sea life seems appropriate.

Two good points "you are German" and you" don't have any grandchildren" so you obviously do not mind being controlled by a corrupt organisation.

I do have grand children, and great grand children. That is why I voted out. I do not wish them to be living in poverty in a few years time, or living in a Muslim state. Unfortunately both are going to happen eventually.

There should not be any reason why insults are traded between those that want to get out, and those that want to stay in. However, it is the continued lies and scaremongering that the 'remainers' keep trotting out. Also conniving with the useless negotiators from the EU. that is causing problems.

Anyone that does not want to live in a free and democratic society,( well the nearest we will get to one ), are quite free to go and live in their precious EU contries if they wish.

Sadly Britain only became the "greatest empire in the world" by removing resources and repressing Africa and India...history shows us how we became rich and prosperous on the backs of others, including the slave trade.
We need to work together, learn unity and not be isolated at a country, we shall be taken over by America and their values, it's already apparent with our health service.

Vera, I was with, and still am with Nigel Farage. He took his life into his own hands to bring some sense to this country. It was he who single handedly brought out this referendum and we owe him a debt of gratitude.

Yes, he was slagged off as a racist for talking about immigration, but what do you expect from a super PC population who follow the herd?

Nigel's perseverence broke the waters, so to speak, so we may a little more freely talk about immigration.

Scandiman, I too am tired of the state of this nation. Full of weaklings who only want their own way.

But truth must be fought for, even if it is on SS, and I will pursue the right and shout down the wrong. Truth and justice must prevail or we are nothing better than a banana republic.

Care to carry on the battle with me?

so you say project fear never happened

When did I say ' Project Fear' didn't happen? It was repeated so many times by Rees-Mogg and Johnson so it became part of the scare tactics and of course it was believed by so many.

Although I agree with the majority of your post, I disagree that the election has nothing to do with Brexit. It's clear that it's a hot topic and people find it important enough to use it as a basis for their vote.

It shouldn't have anything to do with Brexit but Theresa May has been on TV all day today telling us it is....

She has consistently made it about Brexit or as she's now known as BlueKip. She's not a great orator she reads constantly from a script and her mantra Strong and Stable comes from Lynton Crozby. She her strings are pulled by Murdoch and the right wing press. She going to the right wing of her party to gain voters from the UKIPPERS as UKIP is a spent partly. Her chancellor will be gone in the new parliament as he's at odds with her.

If you believe that lot then of course you'll believe the Koran teaches a peaceful way of life.

I've read the Koran, end to end three times. If you've read all the crepe coming out of Brussels then, of course, you're deluded.

What on earth makes you think that your post is in any way relevant to mine? It's just a generic complaint.

How about trying to explain how Brexiters can claim that the EEC was just a common market, when the founding treaty says otherwise?

How supercillious of you, dear chap.,

I think your present condition precludes any further contact until you've been cured.

Hey Ho!

Lol. That's a perfect example of being a seagull.

It was origionally just supposed to be the Common Market. That is the issue the EU HQ want it to be a superstate. Why grind us all down to an amorphous mass?

It was originally just supposed to be the Common Market. That is the issue the EU HQ want it to be a superstate. Why grind us all down to an amorphous mass?

Lol we voted yes in 1975. End off. Oh hang on a sec. It wasn't the end was it? So why should it be the end now that you've got your way?

OK, so you didn't read that 1975 pamphlet did you? So why bother commenting on my post?

Here's what you missed:
" The aims of the Common Market are:

To bring together the peoples of Europe.

To raise living standards and improve working conditions.

To promote growth and boost world trade.

To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world.

To help maintain peace and freedom."

Now how can you claim in all honesty that was just a common market?

All noble aims. What it didnt say was have one currency, have one set of MEPs all earning a fortune, have one law between all states. Its a vast bureaucracy and gravy train. Its simply too big. One powerhouse Germany-2 reasonable economies UK & France and most of the PIGS just basket cases. Greece should never have been in there or Portugal. Why are you so worried about the UK leaving? Japan manages quite well so does South Korea as independent nations

What a miserable, superior individual you are.

You care to instruct this great British people, care to teach us, what we missed.

Sir, I missed nothing in the '75 referendum. I was then, and am now, well aware of what the Common Market would become. I read the Treaty of Rome in the British Library in London.

Here, may I point out, for your deepest consideration, all the points listed above have a'failed' notice beside them. No, not one has come right. Fail, in every sense.

So, I respectfully suggest, you take your salary from the EU and go away. Oh, and don't comment in the Independent, Telegraph or Times.

Your card is marked.

LOL, so the only argument that you have to true
Facts is to get angry, threaten people and insult them. That's so mature isn't it?

And why are you getting on your high horse about a post that wasn't addressed to you? I think that if you look carefully at how you started your post you will see a reflection of yourself there.

Now kindly read my original post and how John herb responded to it, comprehend it and​ see what a pompous individual you look like.

PS I don't get a salary from the EU and have never been employed by it. Try not to reduce the whole world to stereotypes.

What no one told us was what was to become the EU would be the outcome of a 1943 blueprint developed by Hitler's henchmen.

But, JohnHerb, I think there's at least one supoosedly male member on here who'll disagree. He's already into the personal hate stuff ... us good ole country lads, we give better than we get.

John Herb, it's been very wet here, have you got your veggies in yet?

It's taken fourty two years to come up with that?

Must be a comprehensive kid.

We are but a small island off the coast off mainland Europe we are no longer an Empire. We are one against 27 that's not great odds. As Trump has said it's jobs for its own and where there are deals he's tending to go to the East. All the noise about countries in Europe going to far Right it didn't materialise and the pro European party's won.

You are not to arrogant are you.

You really are the most arrogant man. I think I would rather have been to a comprehensive school at least they teach manners so don't look down on children that attend comprehensive school. You really are a class snob. I know many children who went to private schools and really haven't turned out any better than children from state school.

That is the problem it should not be one against 27. Anyway apart from voting rights its nothing like that. Apart from Germany the Uk is the richest economy with France in Europe. Most of the 27 are "tiddlers". We lost our empire 70 years ago. All empires rise and fall. The EU will be the same its in its decendency now unfortunately one reason of many is the UK is leaving

That is the problem it should not be one against 27. Anyway apart from voting rights its nothing like that. Apart from Germany the Uk is the richest economy with France in Europe. Most of the 27 are "tiddlers". We lost our empire 70 years ago. All empires rise and fall. The EU will be the same. Its in its decendency now unfortunately one reason of many is the UK is leaving

this brings back memories as i remember voting for the first time back in 75 and voted for the EEC as it was then ,i still believe we should have remained insde the EU as flawed as it is and strived for changed ! I have published similar very well written articles on Fbook and other forums and the similarity where Brexitiers answer with expletives is unbelievable. I have to accept the referendum but i do believe it was held in an uniformed arena by people who were asked to make a an open ended decision the consequences of which could potentially cost us all a lot of money before it has any chance of working.

You say his card is marked ,is this some kind of threat?If so then it is totally unnecessary and as i assume as you are on this forum that you are a mature? None of us have to agree with any thing said but we should all respect people opinions as long as they are expressed in a respectful manner ..I thought face book was bad enough !!!

So should we just go on having referenda until you get the result you want? Is there any point in having a referendum at all in that case?
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We will have even less idea technically about whether we should stay in or out after the negotiations have concluded.
The average person knew very little about Brexit before we voted in the Referendum and we have no idea where we will be after being mauled by the EU. We certainly won't be in a position to make an informed opinion as to what to vote for. We have no option but to trust that this government will do its best for us and if necessary - rather than be humiliated and made to grovel without reason to the EU - we must be prepared to walk away. None of this is to be confused with our home policies with which many disagree, but for the time being we have only one party capable of facing what is coming.

I totally agree with you about the benefit side of this but our governments past and present decided on that issue. They didn't have to hand out benefits, monetary, housing or otherwise willy nilly, other European countries don't but ours chose to....

Well said.

By your implication, all those "oldies" who voted to leave were lost in the reverie of the past and were too stupid to glean for themselves whether exiting the EU would have a good or bad outcome?

Rather damning!
I would appreciate your telling the forum exactly how you are privy to information that will ensure voting to stay in would have been the more intelligent thing to do.

Yo, I think you'll find the answer here.

The majority of people haven't voted for very many years. But of a sudden ... yes of a sudden, they are awake, alert and going forward into a battle for which they have no prior knowledge, no background and are actually totally igorant. Like our soldiers at Cressy, lives laid down without knowing why.

None of these people are privvy to special or secret information, it's just suuposition and hearsay. They are the fodder of politicians.

If I may be so bold as to offer a word of advice, just ignore them. They'll go away soon.

If you read my post again I wrote that we had absolutely no idea about the outcome of the decision and on what basis it would be implemented should the leave vote win, which was the decision, but I just don't get why anyone that has a fair bit of history to compare it to would risk what we have now for something completely unknown and which in all probability is going to make us all much worse off in so many ways. I also said that we don't know either what the future could hold had we decided to stay in. I

Yes it is true, no-one has a clue as to whether we will be better off or not. Either side of the argument will eventually lead to the same conclusion.
World wars fought for freedom and etched into the brains of the "oldies" will have a decided impact simply because of the power the EU wields.
When we joined the EEC/EU, ( as you so rightly corrected me) we had no idea either.
We were always able to govern ourselves, we must return to that state.

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Not the old "it was only a common market" myth. It's quite clear from the Treaty of Rome that the EEC was always more than that.

And this is what the government pamphlet on the referendum in 1975 said, "The aims of the Common Market are:

To bring together the peoples of Europe.

To raise living standards and improve working conditions.

To promote growth and boost world trade.

To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world.

To help maintain peace and freedom."

http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm

The referendum was passed through Parliament by a lawful bill that stated that it was advisory only and did not need to be adhered to whichever side won. Its all online.

Here we have a very difficult point. I don't think it's covered in Law or Precedent.

David Cameron said publicly that if the Referendum vote was 'Leave,' then the very next day Article 51 would be invoked. The question is, would that statement be regarded as Law? Is a statement of intent from a sitting Prime Minister binding upon his unelected successor from the same party after his resignation?

Perhaps we should say the Law Lords should be sorting this one out rather ran running after Mrs. Miller!

Oh, and The Referendum result is binding in Law. Just read the text of the Bill.

Yet another sensible comment.

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I have always preferred the known to the unknown. Looking forward to the negotiations that start soon after the General Election.

The country has not spoken. 27% of the electorate have spoken.

In a democratic country this is enough.

No it isn't. Not to change the constitution so radically. A vote of 66% was needed in Parliament to bring the election forward and this was gained by Theresa May when she wanted her snap election. Referendums are different from elections and need greater than just a majority vote.

The majority failed to get off their butts.

That's the 27% tht cared to get off their butts andvote.

I you don't vote you've no right of complaint.

Why, when the sitting Prime Minister decalred a majoriity vote would win? Please explain.

It was not a general election, nor a TV game show or football match. It was advisory, the government had no mandate to act on it. If it had not been advisory there would have been a supermajority (as in union votes etc and is in the constitution of most charities or clubs).

I rather think you're mistaken here. Cameron, the sitting Prime Minister, said if the vote was Leave then his government would invoke article 50 next day. So, he who enacts law, does he not also speak it? If not what is the value of his office?

I agree Lionel, what was the value of his office but it is true that the bill was passed through Parliament as advisory, you can find it online. It also states that it did not have to be followed through. David Cameron should have made this clear but he didn't....

In the hugely expensive pamphlet delivered to every household - I sent my back to Downing Street - it stated the result would become government policy, or words to that effect.

The Referendum Bill, I can't now remember the exact words, but it gave the strong sense the result would be decisively acted upon.

Advisory? No. The evidence militates against that view.

He could say what he liked, he could write what he liked on a leaflet but that didn't mean he had to go through with it.

What part of parliamentary democracy do you not understand? Why do you think Gina Miller took the gov't to court?

Eh?

Well, first, let's not exalt Gina Miller. This South American former model holding a British passport because of a dubious marriage would be no one without the funds of Gerge Soros. You will, of course, have understood, in gaining so much press she has made another fortune, or should I say another by dubious means.

You, rather discourteously, ask what part of democracy I don't understand? I ask, what part of common polite intercourse you do not practice? Much it seems.

Allow me to inform you, if a sitting Prime Minister makes a verbal declaration both he and his government are utterly bound by that statement. That sits in precedent. Chamberlain's broadcast to Britain in 1939 telling us we were at war with Germany was full, complete, absolute and final. If you don't believe me read Churchill's History of the Second World War. I have! The following five years proved Chamberlain to be quite right. When when Cameron uttered those fateful words he announced a fact, not a pipe dream.

Thus, Oldhasbean, another Remainer case demonlished, the latest of quite a few.

Goodbye!

Yes, and where is Cameron now? He lit the blue touch paper and went into hiding. So the value of his office is of a coward not capable of seeing through his mess.

Um....not every household received this pamphlet, we certainly didn't. Perhaps some rural dwellers were missed?

The leave propaganda was a pack of lies.
That's not democratic in my book.

The Remain camp was even worse. That's not only undemocratic, it brings into question the entinire referendum.

But since yesterday, only 22 % off the population wish to remain in the EU, the entire historic argument is academic.

Why do you call it 'the people choice's? I am a remainer and when I last looked one of the people. Are you suggesting only leavers are people?

The Leavers lost the first referendum in 1975. They then whined and whinged about it for forty years. all the while spreading lies about the EU and trying to sabotage it. So why shouldn't there be a third referendum

The EU is not the same as it was 40 years ago. We did not sign up to be ruled by them, we were joining the common market to work together. So give it another 40 years and then hold another referendum.

No you're wrong. In the 1975 referendum, the pamphlet that the government sent out made it quite clear that it was more than a trade deal.
See for yourself here:
http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm

."The aims of the Common Market are:

To bring together the peoples of Europe.

To raise living standards and improve working conditions.

To promote growth and boost world trade.

To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world.

To help maintain peace and freedom."

Lies, damn Lies and statistics. We are all entitled to our own opinions, but unless we agree with yours I supose we are all wrong. I respect yours are different to mine and that you are entitled to believe what you wish.

Well as May is not getting her way she is certainly trying to get a result with best of 3!

You were asked your opinion, that is all. That is the nature of an advisory referendum.

Congratulations, two Brexit myths in one sentence.

Quite

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There is no hand to show

there is no hand to show

Precisely.

The Leavers lost the first referendum in 1975. They then whined and whinged about it for forty years. all the while spreading lies about the EU and trying to sabotage it. So why shouldn't there be a third referendum

Not by the general public. You were asked your opinion in an advisory referendum. You did not make a decision, that was for Parliament to do.

It's going to be weak and wobbly.

Please don't give up. Brexit will damage Britain

Absolutely there are so many negative implications to leaving. I'm old but will be leaving this world with a heavy heart knowing what has been bequeathed to our young people.

Please forgive spelling error in my comment I meant to say deep devisions..

Who are you going for Conservatives or UKIP but there again they are almost the same party. May is pandering to the right wing of her party.

Please don't give up. You know Brexit will be bad for Britain

It's not a matter of giving up Graham it's simply an accceptance of democracy- I'm a sole trader and I deal with Europe as a buyer and a seller and don't relish having to deal with Customs when I post items out or pay import duties on what I buy.

Sorry Glynis. I spent months weighing up the pros and cons of my decision. In the end I voted to leave. That decision has resulted in me being called A Dolt -Stupid- Totally Selfish -and much worse by so called friends.I resent these insults but they have filled me with pity for the people who issued them and resolve never to give in to them. So carry on insulting the people who voted to leave, unfortunately they are the real democrats,

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It will be worse than staying in the EU.

It is wrong to insult your decision. However you should see that ten months on from the referendum you and I know a lot more about the issue and I certainly believe Brexit is wrong. It is not too late to stop it.

Really?

More than 10 months has elapsed and we are no further forward. I agree Brexit is wrong it's not just a case of picking up our ball and not playing anymore...our people are going to suffer not the elite but our ordinary hard working people. I perish the thought and am scared for our future.

I don't agree that we can not stop Brexit. Wether the other 27 members would want to let us change our mind might actually be the issue. I live in one of the 27 and frankly Brexit is old news and everyone is getting on with the future without Britain.
In fact it is not old news, it is more no news as it is hardly mentioned in the media outside of Britain.

It's the young that will be the ones affected and they would not have voted. We are no longer an Empire and we don't rule the waves. I don't want a blue passport and we will always be European even when we leave the Eu.

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Your comment shows that you were woefully uninformed and still are: the EU has to work with a balanced budget, so contingency reserves are not permitted. The Brexit divorce bill is for commitments that the UK has agreed to: they could not have been known in advance and written in the treaties.

It's a pipe dream to believe that the money saved on the EU contribution (about 35 pence per day per UK resident) will make any meaningful difference to the NHS or housing.

Let's go backwards is that what you are saying. Most people are worried about their children's future. There will be tactical voting. It will take the young to come out and vote as the majority of people that vote are the over 60 's.

What sovereignty we are not some super power we are a small island of mainland Europe. 27 countries against one! Portugal here I come!

Goodbye .

The government White Paper clearly said that the UK has not lost any sovereignty to the EU.

Spot on, I used more words though!

The problem being it was the over 60's that were the overwhelming ones that voted Leave.

So, it was the over 60s that voted to stay in in the 70s but now it is a totally different organisation and we have changed our minds. There was no reason the under 60s couldn't have voted to stay but a lot of them weren't bothered and didn't vote, that's democracy. Personally I think people should be forced to vote.

Why is that a problem ? If youngsters can't be bothered to get off their backsides and vote then they are foolish.Do you think there was a secret arrangement involving millions of wrinklies to vote leave or perhaps they looked at the ramifications of staying and thought Oooh I think we'd be better off out of this nebulous organisation and get our own MPs to do what they are paid to do and run this Country. I think the latter.
PS. I'm not racist , I fully understand that we need immigration.

Quite right we should never had had that second referendum in 2016. Unfortunately the Leavers lost the first referendum in 1975. and then whined and whinged about it for forty years. all the while spreading lies about the EU and trying to sabotage it.

Please don't give up. Brexit is wrong for Britain.

That is just brilliant Wilf. Thank you.

Thanks Lionel..made me laugh as I was writing it... seriously some of these MPs really are a joke. they need to go down the pub and talk to some "normal" Brits like us and get a dose of what the average Brit really thinks and wants.

Wilf, I doubt our MP here in North Suffolk has ever seen the inside of a pub. He's a farmer's son, a chartered surveyor with a national firm ... yet he behaves like the archetypal Anglican vicar as played by Derek Nimmo. In short, a clown. Stammering and rather dotty.

I doubt our MP has been near a pub. No, more like the local Conservative Club. 'A rather rare scotch, ole boy, have a dozen, makes one feel better about the riff raff.'

So many MPs are like Corbyn, just fine when addressing supporters but when it comes to ordinary people who don't agree they've nothing to say. I think that's why Theresa May walks all over Corbyn at PMQs.

The Liberals in power in 2048 ... I shall be a little shy of a centenarian. Maybe I'll still be a political onlooker and remember your words, I'd like to think so. If I've still got my marbles I'll certainly remember you for your common sense.

From this isolated part of Suffolk, the political pot is boiling. What it will produce ... I don't know, but I need my state pension.

Couldn't agree more Wilf, with the exception that I voted Out. I have just stated that I will vote for the party that holds a referendum on whether or not we have a referendum on Brexit...... lol !

Yes Lionel the problem with most of these Fellows is none of them have done a hard days work in their lives. Fallon looks like he should still be in Primary School! Milliband had always been a political activist and a champagne socialist. how on earth would he know what hardship is. My mother was born in the slums of Liverpool and her dad was in the Navy during WW2 for 5 years away in Africa mostly. A very very tough life but a full one. We need MPs who have worked hard had loads of everyday experience and then become MPs for a cause they believe in BUT all the time have an Auriga...."continuously whispering in his ears Memento homo (remember you are (only) a man) to avoid that the excess of celebration could lead the celebrated commander to lose his sense of proportions.!!!!!!"

Brilliant idea Secretum...yes you should email the Liberals and suggest that. I am sure Fallon has lost his marbles. How on earth can we go back and re-vote when we don't even know what Brexit looks like anyway-Captain Mannering of Dads Army would have looked at him and said "Stupid Boy"!

I totally agree StuartB. What are we supposed to do keep on as you suggest with multiple votes until the liberals get what they want and thats only because of Clegg and his crew who were decimated in the last election.

10 months on from the referendum we now know more and it is bad. Brexit will damage Britain. Don't give up.

Hi GrahamPg.
You say with confidence "we now know more" more what, and how is it bad?
I have heard the opposite.
Maybe we pay too much attention to the arch propagandists, the media.
None of us can say with a certain degree of certainty what is going on behind closed doors, nor what political agenda is being played out.
The damage to Britain has been the incremental take over of our lands. We once stood proud as a nation, The EU has its own agenda and Britain does not have a say in the matter.

I am not giving up.

Hello Yodama,
Well we know more because we know it is not very simple to leave. There will lots of bad things not just good things.
I am not going to list the bad things as many are the reverse side of the good things. Just one....immigrants from the EU, who is going to do all these low paid (minimum wage) jobs such as waiting on tables and sorting sizes of potatoes.
No political part are talking about the Brexit benefits. Have you heard ANYTHING recently about "the Brexit bounce" "the Brexit dividends" if you have let me know.
Why is it difficult, it is going to be very difficult and expensive. For example that there are two phases in the negotiations.
The divorce
The new relationship with the EU.
Do you even know what the agenda is for Phase 1) well the 27 does know the first three things on that agenda.
All to be done and dusted by March 2019
It's not easy pushing back against Brexit but we are walking towards a cliff and someone has to shout "the king has no cloths"

The Leavers lost the first referendum in 1975. They then whined and whinged about it for forty years. all the while spreading lies about the EU and trying to sabotage it. So why shouldn't there be a third referendum

Why not, in another 40 years!!!

The 'Brexit bounce' yet another buzz word to put the fear of God into people.
Nobody ever thought it would be a 'cake walk', without a doubt there will be severe repercussions.
Britain is going to have her ba**s in a vice without question.

If we look at the recent mayhem caused by porous borders in Germany and other countries, (Merkel is backtracking at speed, France is suffering attack after attack) it is essential we protect our own borders without interference...as we have always done without the EU.

Workers will be allowed in to fulfil jobs as always in the medical field, farming, waiters etc. there will be a selection process, not like now........ as we have always done without the EU.
This country was built on migrants, why should it be different now.
We cannot sustain the influx of migrants who do not contribute in some way.

Our new relationship with the EU will be like any divorce, either bitter or a decision to remain on speaking terms. The EU needs Britain, never forget that.

Phase 1 agenda, agendas change as negotiations change.

We were alone and thriving, a world power long before we joined the EU, why would we be walking over a cliff now?
It is up to the British people to support and stand behind the decision to divorce the controlling, unelected bullies who are the EU.
There are deeper and more important reasons for leaving the EU. Sizing potatoes is not one of them.

I think the problem with Heath and the 1970s was the UK was in such a state after Labour had been in power for years and then Heath made it worse that belonging to a trading bloc that had Germany which at the time was beginning to be the economic miracle of Europe after WW2 seemed quite an attractive proposition. You are absolutely right though Yodama why couldn't we have had a second vote then about going into the EU...maybe we should have it now 50 years on? Now there is an idea. I will send a letter to Tim Fallon and see what he thinks!

Hi Yodama ...... Heath didn't take us into the EU, he took us into the EEC - which was the European Economic Community, which we referred to as The Common Market but yes agree with you wholeheartedly he did take us in under false pretences. I originally voted in both the 1970's referendum to go in and to remain in..... BUT as the years progressed I realised that we had been duped and what it was costing us as a Country in all areas; and I have been waiting since the 1980's for us to Leave. The 'Economic' gives a clue to what it was all about originally, trading only..... NOT being ruled by them.

You are right Secretum, it was the EEC that we joined, it later became the EU as we know it now morphing into an all powerful controlling bloc.

De Gaulle said an emphatic "Non" to Harold McMillan in 1963 when we wanted to join the EEC, it was only after De Gaulle resigned and Pompidou began to extend a friendly hand that ten years later we were "allowed" to join the club.
The idea that we were joining a free trade area was a con. We were required to play a strong role to counterbalance the Germans for the French and the same counterbalance for the Germans.

It was a political union and had little to do with free trade.

In a famous speech Heath promised:
There are some in this country who fear that in going into Europe we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified.”

Well that went well then. We have lost our sovereignty spectacularly.

The question remains, was it illegal and can we repeal the act?

It will be hard Wilf, extricating ourselves. Maybe the legalities in the way we were taken into the EEC or EU in the first instance should be examined with a magnifying glass. Repeal the act and get out of this diabolical marriage as soon as possible.
If we don't we will be nothing but yes men to this huge gorgon with many secretive heads.

I agree Yodama. I worry the Eu will play hardball with us to prevent other members from leaving. The other worry for them is when we leave and ...hopefully...do well economically other countries may look towards this as an example and want to leave as well. The issue for most of them is they have the Euro so it would be much more difficult. thank goodness we never gave up Sterling...Gordon Brown cannot be thanked as he wanted to join it besides selling off all our gold at a pittance!!!!!

The EEC was never only about trading: just look at the introduction to the Treaty of Rome. In addition the pamphlet that the government sent out for the first referendum in 1975 was clear: "The aims of the Common Market are:

To bring together the peoples of Europe.

To raise living standards and improve working conditions.

To promote growth and boost world trade.

To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world.

To help maintain peace and freedom."

http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm

In what way did we lose our sovereignty? The government White Paper on Brexit published by this government says that we didn't.

It's a vain hope that the UK or maybe the former UK will do well. It's cutting itself off from workers, investment, revenue and tax income. There's no way that that is going to end well.

I would not be too sure. If the Eu was a company it would be stifled with bureaucracy and most departments would have closed (Greece, Spain, Portugal). I voted to stay in but am thinking we will make a go of it. After all we did ok for 1,000 years without it!!!!

Sovereignty is self- government, self-determination and autonomy. In Britain we are a Constitutional Monarchy.
The EU is a tool of colonisation, each time they need to do something to infiltrate our laws and ways of life, they adopt a regulation or directive.
We have no say in many areas of our daily lives such as the demise of the fishing industry and the regulation of farmers.
We could not get rid of a hateful radical because of EU laws.
So how are we sovereign??

Yodama: have you got any real examples rather than vague claims?
You do realise that the UK has a veto on important issues, so " they" whoever they are cannot force us to do anything.

You also don't seem to understand that directives don't force us to do anything: they set goals that are agreed by the member states who then choose how to implement them.

But the icing on the cake is complainng about decisions by the ECHR preventing deportation of"a hateful radical". The ECHR is not an EU institution. The UK was a prime mover in setting it up after the second world and before the EEC was invented.

So glad to know that you were fully informed before you voted /sarcasm

By the way: the demise of the fishing industry is because British boat owners sold their quotas to non-UK boats. This is one of the many issues that will require negotiation. If the UK declares the sold quotas null and void then the boat owners will demand compensation...

When we joined Britain was called the sick man of Europe.

Here are some vague facts to some rather vague claims.

The question on this forum is " Do you want another referendum?"
Simple - No!

The fishing industry:
As the United Nations Law of the Sea states: “The exclusive economic zone shall not extend beyond 200 nautical miles from the baselines”. Yet Britain’s fishing rights have now been reduced by the EU to a mere 12 miles.

Fish landings in Uk
1970 - 948, tonnes
2014 - 11,845 tonnes

We had 21,443 fishermen in Uk in 1970, today we have less than 11,500.
92% of fisherman voted to leave the EU.

Brexit would free us from red tape
France is the uks biggest export market for fish, are they suddenly going to stop buying from us?
We export to the US, Spain, Irish Republic, Italy, China, Netherlands, Germany, Nigeria, and more markets are opening up in Africa.
We would be able to free ourselves from setting ur own prices, our hands are tied now.
Pessimism could drown the industry, ships would have to queue in an Operation Stack to handle congestion due to mounds of paperwork

I quote:
Outside the EU, the UK would not be obliged to implement EU directives, and could negotiate derogations of acts or exemptions even if it wanted closer trade ties. Simon Dwyer, managing director at Seafox Management Consultants, based in Grimsby, says this is one of the most positive outcomes of Brexit. (sic)
End quote.
Greenland successfully negotiated favourable terms for their exit, and now enjoy favourable trade deals with the EU. If a nation of 57,000 can do it, why do we often hear that Britain, a nation of 65 million, cannot do the same?

ECHR/ EU
Deportation of hateful radical cleric Abu Abu Qatada Al-Filistini
Quote:
Article 17 of protocol 14 allows the European Union to become party to the Convention. In turn the Lisbon Treaty, which entered force in December 2009, provides that the European Union should accede and become a party to the Convention. The Committee of Ministers is to evaluate in 2012 to 2015 the extent to which the implementation of Protocol 14 has improved the effectiveness of the Court. The Committee of Ministers is to decide before 2019 whether more reforms of the Court are necessary.
End quote.
How far are you prepared to down this dark Rabbit Hole?
Walter Hallstein, IG Farben?

Well that all went well then, wars, poverty, radicalism, racism etc;
A lovely fairy story.

All this is doing my head in, I am off to the movies, an unreality check. Probably have popcorn too.

I think Brexit has been thrashed to death in the previous articles on
Speakers corner, as you say, marathon posts. We are just re-hashing the same arguments.
The theme of this debate is whether we need another referendum, people are still living in denial.

In June 2016 we thought we understood what leaving the EU meant. Eleven months on we now know that leaving the EU is very bad for all of Britain.
Don't give up. You voted remain because you believed that was right.

As much as I disagree with Brexit I am a believer in democracy. The majority voted to leave. Referendums and election outcomes should not be reversed unless the outcome can be proven to be based on lies. I personally feel the leave campaign mislead the voters however I think it would be detrimental to the nation to vote again. The young who didn't vote who blame the older generation on the outcome they didn't want have no one to blame but themselves they had the same opportunity as everyone else., hopefully the result will be a learning curve for the non voters, use your vote. I will try and make the best of things, when negotiations are finally over I will decide whether my future is in this country or elsewhere. Shame because I love my country but I think I love the earth more. An idealist perhaps but I prefer a world without frontiers

Good idea Johnherb

Now we know more it is clear we should not leave the EU. It is not too late to stop it. Except the other 27 may not want to let us change our mind without some deal.

put your white flag up forget the millions who died to give you a vote ? can you vote for a leader of the EU even after 30 years at least we will after just five years